At the Seven Eleven

This is a discussion on At the Seven Eleven within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This scenario came up at work while discussing CCW Say you're waiting in line at the convenience store to pay for your gas and coffee. ...

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Thread: At the Seven Eleven

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array sisco's Avatar
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    At the Seven Eleven

    This scenario came up at work while discussing CCW
    Say you're waiting in line at the convenience store to pay for your gas and coffee. Scruffy dude in front of you pulls a weapon and tells the clerk to hand over the cash or he'll shoot. He's so intent on getting a few bucks for his next fix he isn't even paying attention to you standing right behind him.

    What now?

    1) Wait and see what he does? (Maybe he'll just take the money and run.)
    2) Pull your gun, cover him and order him to cease and desist? (while ensuring no customers or the clerk are in the line of fire.)
    3) Wait to see if he's serious about shooting the clerk. If he does, take him out?
    4) Just shoot the SOB? (Again ensuring a clear line of fire.)
    Last edited by sisco; October 29th, 2006 at 11:34 AM.
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  3. #2
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    #1.

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    Call 911 and be a good witness!
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    Distinguished Member Array jarhead79's Avatar
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    I'm gonna say 2.

    If you're willing you use your gun at all in this situation, your whole purpose is lost, if you wait until the clerk is shot. At that point, he's likely to turn and shoot you immediately after shooting the clerk. You won't have time to draw your "self defense tool" at that point, as he's in "rapid fire mode".

    If you're not gonna use your weapon, book it out of there and make a good witness.

    If you're gonna stay, draw down and get to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle View Post
    Call 911 and be a good witness!
    I'd have to go with rstickle on this one, in Oklahoma all the 7-11's are posted no carry.
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    Senior Member Array jofrdo's Avatar
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    None of the Above

    Why wait to see what he does? The clerk is in immediate danger of being killed or maimed. I would retreat to a place of cover if he has a gun or out of reach if he has a knife, draw my weapon and command him "drop your weapon or I'll shoot." If he doesn't respond and continues to threaten the life of the clerk, I'd fire on him. If he turns his weapon on me, I'd fire. If he lowers the weapon and flees, I'd let him go. Then of course, call 911.

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    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
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    I would not do #2. I would loose the element of surprise if I draw my gun and start barking orders. He is not in a logical frame of mind so I can't assume he will comply. I do not wish to get in a shootout with him since now he knows I have a gun too.
    It is faster for him to act; point and shoot, then it is for me to react to what he is doing and shoot back.
    I would quickly access the situation and see where my exits are. If the BG is between the exit and I and I am stuck in the store I would have to start thinking of my safety first and then the clerks.
    I know from my CCW course (law part was taught by a lawyer) we were told that if we can put ourselves in the clerks shoes and they have the right to use deadly force then I do also to protect them.
    So if the BG has a gun in his hand and is making threats to the clerk I know I have to right to use deadly force.
    I would move for better cover and read the situation. If he is not paying attention to me then I can draw my gun and have it ready for all the "what ifs" as I see them play out.
    Surprise is the key for me so I am in an action mode and not a reaction mode. If he doesn't know I have a gun then by the time he can react, it's too late.
    All this accessing seems to sound like it would take a long time. Even though the whole situation may play out in a few seconds.
    In those few seconds I would do all 4 things except #2, I would not bark out orders.

    1) Wait and see what he does? (Maybe he'll just take the money and run.)
    2) Take cover and pull your gun (while ensuring no customers or the clerk are in the line of fire.)
    3) Wait to see if he's serious about shooting the clerk. If he does, take him out?
    3) Just shoot the SOB? (Again ensuring a clear line of fire.)

    In one second all those thing might come about that fast and it will seem like I did #3 at the end.
    Last edited by Maverick7340; October 29th, 2006 at 12:30 PM.

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    Senior Member Array jofrdo's Avatar
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    A few years ago in Portsmouth, VA, an armed teen entered a liqour store and ordered all customers to lie on the floor, then proceeded to order the clerk to open the cash drawer. While his attention was on the clerk, a permit holder on the floor behind him drew and fired, hitting the bad guy in the back. The BG fled from the store, exchanging shots with our man as he did. End of story, BG died on the sidewalk in front of the store, nobody injured; shattered plate glass window, and a lot of wasted spirits (what a shame).

    This scenario is different from the one posted in that the BG engaged everone in the store by ordering them to the floor. They all feared they would be executed. As related in the newspaper, the permit holder issued no orders to drop the weapon; he simply opened up on the BG.

    Maverick7340's response, along with my recollection of the above case, has made me change my mind about issuing orders. I think the best approach is to find cover, draw and fire.

    What do you all think about the tactical advantage of assuming a kneeling position before shooting so that you will present a smaller target when the BG turns to engage you? It also makes you a stationary target.

    PS In the story of the liquor store robbery, the BG's mother came out in the press two days later claiming her baby had been murdered "in cold blood" and demanded that the permit holder be arrested and charged. The local prosecuters office refused, rightly seeing the shooting as legitimate self defense with a legally possessed gun, and even implied that the permit holder was a hero.

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    I'll Cover It This Way..

    Start out with three #4's...
    Then a #1...

    Stay alert...stay safe!

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    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    Sounds bad but he threatened the clerk not me, get gun in hand after all thats where it belongs and be the good witness unless he directly threatens me.

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    retsup99 ...I love it. 3#4's then #1. Seriously, it's probably only a matter of time until the perp discovers you. I'd rather act while I had the drop on them.

    I'd probably do #2, and if he made ANY false move I'd gun 'em. I'd make it my fight just so I could control the situation.
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    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    retsup99




    Someone hereabouts has the signature from Tuco of Good, Bad, Ugly fame. "when it's time to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." I believe our LEO friends call confronting that armed person "the challenge". The next move becomes the felon's move. Why give up the tactical advantage? You are justified in acting on the clerks behalf and the capability, proximity, and intent are there. Honestly believe life of innocents is endangered by felon's actions, then shoot, don't talk.

  14. #13
    Member Array falkon's Avatar
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    Maverick7340

    That is what I have always thought I would do in that situation. I made the decision a long time ago that if I clear leather then I was going to shoot. I would never give away the element of surprise by commanding the BG to drop the weapon. I would yell stop at the same time I would pull the trigger.
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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    Someone hereabouts has the signature from Tuco of Good, Bad, Ugly fame. "when it's time to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." I believe our LEO friends call confronting that armed person "the challenge". The next move becomes the felon's move. Why give up the tactical advantage?
    I have a slightly different perspective on this. The way I've been taught is to yell, "Stop! Please! Drop your weapon!" on the draw. Note that this doesn't mean slowing down the draw or refraining from shooting until I've got the entire sentence out.

    This accomplishes a couple of things. First off, it may persuade the BG to drop his weapon, or at least turn tail and run. Particularly if he mistakes the "Please" for "Police" (saying please rather than police, or at least being able to credibly argue you did, helps keep you safe from any charge of impersonating a police officer). It also establishes you as "one of the good guys" since you asked him to drop his weapon, rather than just pulling out your gun and blowing him away. Finally, if you have to shoot, it helps to clearly establish the fact that the BG was armed in the minds of witnesses, even if they don't actually see a weapon.

    Now in the situation described in the 7-11, where I've got the drop on the BG, I probably wouldn't give the verbal challenge. Complete surprise is a good tactical advantage that's too good to give up and the benefits of the challenge don't outweigh that. However, in most situations where you draw a weapon, the BG already knows you're there, and probably already has his attention focused on you (that attention is probably why you're drawing the weapon in the first place). In those cases, I think the benefits of the challenge outweigh any disadvantages.

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    Senior Member Array afeazell21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    Why wait to see what he does? The clerk is in immediate danger of being killed or maimed. I would retreat to a place of cover if he has a gun or out of reach if he has a knife, draw my weapon and command him "drop your weapon or I'll shoot." If he doesn't respond and continues to threaten the life of the clerk, I'd fire on him. If he turns his weapon on me, I'd fire. If he lowers the weapon and flees, I'd let him go. Then of course, call 911.

    +1!!!!
    "Dont be afraid to go after what you want to do, and what you want to be. But don't be afraid to be willing to pay the price." - Lane Frost

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