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Knocking on our door at midnight

6K views 29 replies 25 participants last post by  mkh 
#1 ·
Around midnight last night, my wife's cell phone rang, waking up both my wife and me. It was my daughter, calling from her room upstairs, asking if we heard the knocking at the front door. Our bedroom is on the main floor with a window facing out to our front lawn. The bedroom is on the left as you enter the house, off the living room through a small hall.

I immediately went to the window and see a guy with a backpack walking across our lawn. I pulled on my sweatpants and ran out the front door. Not seeing the guy, I ran to the side of the house and see someone standing there in the shadows. I shouted "WHAT ARE YOU DOING?" and he replied "Nothing". I then yelled I was calling the police and ran back to the house but I hear him yell "Wait, it's [name of my son's friend]." I went inside, locked the door and called out to my son. I told him that his friend was outside and asked him if he knew why he had come by. My son told me that his friend was supposed to have come by several hours earlier since they had the next day off from school and they were going to just hang out.

At this point, the friend had come back to the front door and I opened it. He was very apologetic and I told him firmly that: a) he should have called before coming over; b) midnight is not a time to be coming over; and c) knocking on a door at midnight and then going around the side of our house was a dumb thing to do and could end up badly. (The reason he was on the side of our house is that he was going to try and yell up to my son's room. We don't have a fence on that side of the house and people can walk through from the street in front of our house to the garage alley that runs behind the houses on our block.)

Surprisingly, when it was all over, I didn't feel an adrenaline rush and once we knew who it was (he's a good kid, just made a bad judgement call), I was able to go back to sleep. But not before I realized the several mistakes I had made.

1. I should have called 911 as soon as I saw someone crossing our lawn, especially after they had been knocking on our door.

2. I went outside.

3. I went outside without my gun. I also have a rail mounted light and usually I connect it to my gun before going to sleep. I hadn't done that last night.

4. I closed the front door when I went inside, but didn't lock it. If there had been someone wanting to get inside, I basically invited them in.

In thinking about the whole scenario, I have several conflicting thoughts. On the one hand, castle doctrine in Texas allows me to defend myself and my property. But if I had used my gun and shot my son's friend it would have been a horrible tragedy. I was so focused on defending my family that I actually left them defenseless and also entered an unknown situation unarmed. I don't want to cower in my home when threatened, but the consequences of any deadly action I might have taken would have been far-reaching.

I'm interested in your thoughts and comments.
 
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#2 ·
...I'm not against our going out to check on someone/something...it's my property and I go out often to check on things and investigate...

...I never go to the door without a gun and a light...I can't shoot what I can't see...nor can I see/identify the threat...

...I don't use a light mounted on a weapon...I'm from the last century, where BG at night instinctually shot at the light, thinking we were behind it...I hold my light way out to the side...and I'm not aiming at what I'm looking at...unless I mean to...no chance of a stumble or a twitch causing me to shoot someone...
...what the visitor did was very dumb...he should have called your son and had him meet him at the door...

...you got a cheap lesson by experiencing this...cost you nothing and let you improve your plans...all's good...glad it worked out well...
 
#3 ·
I would've at least had my gun with me, and ideally had a light... But, all's well that ends well. Nothing happened. Lesson learned.
 
#4 ·
You pretty much summed up what I would have done differently. It is one of those situations that is hard if not impossible to mimic (at least the adrenaline part) and is something we need to be ready for. Glad it ended ok.
 
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#5 ·
I think you have made a very important and profound lesson not on just what you did wrong, but also the use of restraint, the importance of target / threat identification, and the importance of being prepared. I agree completely that if you had shot your sons friend it would be a terrible, life altering tragedy. But you have identified what you could have done better and also what you did right. You asserted your dominance over your home, you put the safety and welfare of your family before your own, and you kept a level head. You should still be proud in how you handled the situation.
 
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#7 ·
Lessons learned, but I don't think one would shoot someone for just 'walking' across the lawn...even in TX.
 
#8 ·
Also keep in mind that if you did grab your gun with the rail mounted light and if you shined it on the, your pointing a gun at your son's friend. That might not go over well with the friends parents. Although, I have to wonder about parents that let their school aged kid roam around at midnight. Glad nothing bad happened.
 
#19 ·
I agree with you, but anyone who prowls around someones house at incredibly late hours should not be suprised if they get a weapon pointed at them. The feelings of the sons parents are irrelevant IMO, in any situation. The OP did what he felt was necessary to protect his family, thats all that matters.
 
#9 ·
Everything turned out well in the end, so you be happy there. And others have mentioned, you learned a valuable lesson for very little cost. No, I would not venture out of the house at midnight without my gun and a flashlight. But I prolly would have gone out to investigate. I can't stay up all night wondering what's out there or listening for every little noise. If it's something like this, the matter is resolved quickly. If it's a vagrant or possible intruder, I can keep him there while my wife calls 911, again resolving the matter.

I'm glad you didn't mistake your son's friend for an intruder, and I'm happy no one was harmed. I wonder, though, how the Castle Doctrine relates to outside your home. Let's speak hypothetically for a moment: If this was a bad guy at the side of your house, not really doing anything but still suspicious. If you shot him before he had a chance to either leave your premises or break into your house, again you come upon him before he has a chance to do either, but he acts in an aggressive manner and you're forced to kill, how would Castle Doctrine apply to that situation?
 
#10 ·
I am a firm believer in "Don't get out of the boat!"

Whether it is the house...or even a room in the house, better off there because it is a smaller area...easier to defend.

Same goes for my car. I don't get out until I know who the "rescuers" are. I just sit with my cell phone and my weapon in my lap. I am like a pearl....as long as I am in my "shell" I am safer than outside of it. And I am prepared to defend my shell.
 
#11 ·
Other than going out without your gun I think you were spot on. As it turned out it was nothing, as in 90% of the things that go bump in the night, had you had your gun you would have been prepared for the 10%.
 
#12 ·
tele__pathic...


"...bad guy at the side of your house, not really doing anything but still suspicious. If you shot him before he had a chance to either leave your premises or break into your house,..."

... that's a bad shoot...Castle Doctrine doesn't apply...



"... again you come upon him before he has a chance to do either, but he acts in an aggressive manner and you're forced to kill, how would Castle Doctrine apply to that situation..."

... Castle Doctrine applies...IF you're justified in using deadly force by what he does, you're covered even if not on your own property(ANYWHERE that you have a right to be)...in Texas...the NRA-model Castle Doctrine is just a term...you have to go by the actual written law in the state you're in...wholelotta differences state to state...
 
#13 ·
scary senario. I would have had a gun since its on my beside I have a light on my gun an a streamlight next to it. I would use the streamlite unless when out side I felt threatened than switch to gun light. Iam glad nothing happened I have 4 sons all grown now an gone but lots of strange things happen when you have teenagers its very challenging. I would probably go thru a couple of senarios with your kids so everyones on the same page an they know what to do an not to do because dads coming out armed. Your daughter was awesome by the way good instincts
 
#14 ·
Your daughter did the most intelligent thing in the whole scenario...Otherwise YOU mucked things up after that initial phone call from her...The good thing is, YOU realize you messed up and messed up big time in your actions...Also, you were lucky it wasn't a true BG situation and was only your son's friend. Use this as a true learning experience...

With that being said, YOU need to concentrate on learning the laws of your state, first reading on how to defend yourself, your family, and your property, peruse some training videos on you-tube, read some more, and finally, get some good training in defensive handgun. We all learn from experience, but reviewing other scenarios and the comments on correct actions, can go a long way towards increasing your learning curve....Be safe Sir...JMO
 
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#15 ·
Thank you to all who have replied and I really appreciate all the thoughtful comments. I found a copy of the Texas "castle law" here (http://www.rc123.com/texas_castle_doctrine.html) and my key takeaway is that one is justified in using force or deadly force only:

"...if the actor [the one using force or deadly force]:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment..."

So it seems that there is no justification to use force or deadly force on someone who is trespassing on one's property and is not with force attempting to enter, or has entered, one's home, vehicle, or place of employment.
 
#17 ·
...be REAL careful...to use deadly force...you have to be able to fit the situation/actions to the law...for SELF-defense it has to fit 9.31 before 9.32 even kicks in...and for PROPERTY defense...9.41 has to apply before 9.42 can kick in...
...Chapter 9 is very carefully written...worth an afternoon's reading...ALMOST won't keep you out of jail...
 
#18 ·
Yeah, um, even if there was person in your house, IT MIGHT NOT BE NECESSARY TO SHOOT THEM! Sure, trespassing's a crime, but even if someone's in my house I'll give them a second or two benefit of the doubt if two conditions are satisfied. 1. I see no weapon or aggressive posture. 2. They comply immediately with each command I give them starting with "Face down on the floor, NOW!" But yes, I'll draw on them immediately in the house. This also presupposes I have a light on them and can be sure it's not a member of my own family or something! I mean, imagine if your kid gave a house key to a friend and they came in (maybe to wait for your kid to get home or something) when you shouldn't have been home, after school for example. Sure, dumb idea (on the part of my kid and the friend) but I'm not going to shoot someone for doing something dumb.

Relevance to the OP's scenario: I would follow a similar program outside with a few changes: I'm probably NOT gonna draw on someone who's just on my property, particularly if I've had a moment to observe them and they are not brandishing a weapon or trying to get in. (Could be a meter reader who forgot to put on the brightly colored vests they wear, or someone from the power Co. etc.) I'm going to inform them they are trespassing, I'm going to command them to stop where they are and I'm going to interview them. This will all be ramped up a bit if it's happening after dark, but as I've said before, if I'm going to be there to protect my family from real threats, I need to NOT BE IN JAIL!

Example: the other night a neighbor's dog got loose. She chased it through my property. Didn't see the dog but I saw her but couldn't recognize her through the heavy parka. Didn't shoot her, or even think about shooting her and I feel pretty Ok about that.
 
#21 ·
Around midnight last night, my wife's cell phone rang, waking up both my wife and me. It was my daughter, calling from her room upstairs, asking if we heard the knocking at the front door. Our bedroom is on the main floor with a window facing out to our front lawn..
False alarms like that are great learning experiences.

You, as many here, myself included, have an instinct to move toward the trouble rather than away from
it. Experiences as yours last night will help your rethink your responses. Been there and done
just that; just with slightly different circumstances.
 
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#28 ·
You, as many here, myself included, have an instinct to move toward the trouble rather than away from
it.
This is an interesting concept. I was in the military. I don't know if it comes from there or my upbringing or just instinct.

When do we call the police vs when do we engage the potential threat.

I went outside recently after a loud noise at night. Full-size pistol with weapon light mounted, finger off trigger, safety on but thumb on top of it, essentially cleared the immediate perimeter. Looked like someone crashed a bicycle into our place and took off.

What was I to do? Call the police and hope the loud noise wasn't someone breaking in?

Weapon lights get a bad rap, if you keep your weapon at the low ready it won't be pointed at any innocent and it still give off enough light to ID who is there.

Thanks for sharing. Hearing about real life scenarios like this should challenge and help all of us.
 
#22 ·
Well, since you asked my opinion, naturally I have one.

I suspect most people on here with any age and kids have experienced something similar to this at one time or another in their lives.

In a secure neighborhood with little crime what you did was perfectly natural and probably close to what I might have done. But today is not the "Beaver Cleaver" days of Mayberry R.F.D. and you just never know.

Sound safety judgement for you and your family dictates not to "hunt" the suspected prowlers but, make a defense, collect your family and retreat to a safe / defensible area ASAP. Call 9-1-1 for help immediately and defend your safe area. My goal would be to make sure my family is safe first and foremost. At the end of the day, that's what counts.

IMHO, if you exit your dwelling to "hunt" you risk a great deal of legal and financial trouble that could have easily been avoided.

To be honest... The following morning I would sure appreciate seeing that beautiful sunrise with my family alive and well, and not have to worry about any self defense shooting, legal matters, lawsuits and not getting a good nights sleep each and every night.
 
#25 ·
Well Mister you made all the Big Mistakes you possibly could and even with ALL THAT...it ended well for all concerned.

You owned up to your mistakes too like any Family Man Should.

Whether you Believe or not The Good Lord was watching out for you and yours and your sons friend.
 
#27 ·
This scenario, or one like it is something I think about, and worry about a lot. I have two older children (22 and 24) still living at home and they with their friends tend to keep some very late hours. It has gotten a lot better now that my oldest graduated from school and got a full time job, but weekends and summers when the 22 year old is home always make me nervous. There have been 2 or 3 times in the last couple of months where our door alarm chirps at midnight or later and I was compelled to "walk" the house. I have gotten a lot better about making the kids give me an expectation on when they plan to come and go, I have their friends always call them (not knock on the door) when they are coming over after 11, I always leave lights on inside and outside the house, and when I do hear the chirp I go to my door and call out to them - I ask them to always respond immediately. Still, it makes me nervous.

I am very happy that this scenario ended well! Thank you for sharing it with us and giving us something to think about.
 
#29 ·
Your sons friend could have well been shot. His going around to the side of the house was a bad thing as well as coming over at 0 dark thirty. Lessons learned to be safe and your sa to be more prepared. Glad to hear that all was ok and you are all safe. Stay safe and carry on.
 
#30 ·
Sounds like you know what you did wrong and are already beating yourself up over it. You don't need my input other than "I'm glad it turned out well".
 
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