Self defense shooting?

Self defense shooting?

This is a discussion on Self defense shooting? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Charges filed in Tamaqua car theft, shooting | Times News Online Hello all, Just came upon this story from 2011. I was wondering what this ...

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    Member Array tommynoll1991's Avatar
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    Self defense shooting?

    Charges filed in Tamaqua car theft, shooting | Times News Online

    Hello all,

    Just came upon this story from 2011. I was wondering what this forum thinks of the circumstance. Can you chase after a car thief, confront them, have them assault (stab) you and then shoot in self defense in PA? Just wondering what you all may have done.

    Tom
    U.S. Army 1973 -1976, Southeastern Signal School Ft. Gordon GA 1973 -1974, Berlin Brigade 1975 -1976.


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    Ex Member Array heatherr855's Avatar
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    Just wondering one thing.How can it be self defense if you chased a car thief?I'm assuming no one is in it, but the thief.If you chased them down,can't see where it's self defense period.First thing i bet you will be asked is,why didn't you call 911 and let cops deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heatherr855 View Post
    Just wondering one thing.How can it be self defense if you chased a car thief?I'm assuming no one is in it, but the thief.If you chased them down,can't see where it's self defense period.First thing i bet you will be asked is,why didn't you call 911 and let cops deal with it.
    Most jurisdictions allow the pursuit/apprehension of known felons by private citizens.
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    I don't think he chased them, it sounds to me like he went looking for the stolen vechicle, found the theives and then asked the what they did with the car. He was then attacked and in my opinion defended himself. JMO

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    Member Array tommynoll1991's Avatar
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    My thoughts exactly. The shooter did call 911 before he went after the BGs. There were three in the stolen car (kids 18 - 19). Apparently it's ok to chase, confront and when things don't go your way, shoot. At least no one was killed over a car.
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    Re: Self defense shooting?

    Don't know about PA. In FL, giving chase makes u the instigator and u getting stabbed is considered self defense by the other party. You shooting and killing the man that stabbed you makes you a murderer.

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    Senior Member Array USM1976's Avatar
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    In the State of Texas anyone who views a felony occur can make a legal arrest of that felon. (Texas Code of Criminal Procedure Article 14.01)

    When this man caught-up to the thieves, he was attacked by the use of deadly assault trying to recover the property. The offense in Texas becomes Aggravated Robbery, another felony. The person trying to recover the property has every legal right to protect himself against the illegal use of deadly force. (Texas Penal Code Section 9.32 and 9.43)

    Now, we can argue all the "what ifs" you desire, but in Texas people have a right to protect their own property and that of another person's property. Quite frankly, I would have shot the other kid with the brass knuckles beating on the hood of the car, too. He was a participant in the Robbery and the prohibited weapon (knuckles) is a felony as well.

    I would not have moved the car as that is a crime scene. I would desire police to see the actual conditions and site of the shooting.
    Last edited by USM1976; March 8th, 2013 at 12:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwarang54 View Post
    In FL, giving chase makes u the instigator and u getting stabbed is considered self defense by the other party. You shooting and killing the man that stabbed you makes you a murderer.

    Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk 2
    Can you cite this? Was there a past case supporting this statement? I'm not saying it's not true but I just don't see how something like that can be so cut and dry.

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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    One other thing to add about Texas is that under PC 9.42 you can prevent the other who is fleeing after the theft during the night time. In Jan at 8:45 it would certainly be nighttime.

    Once he caught up with them, he was certainly within in rights to defend himself against the use of brass knuckles and a knife the way I see it.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    I think the OP asked specifically about PA. The laws are all over the place
    depending on the state one is in. I'm sure in some you must about say to the
    thieves, "Thank you sir, I appreciate your kindness in stealing my car, my insurer
    will fix me up, and its just a small deductible. I think I'll sue you in small claims court
    to recover that deductible."

    And in others you can use the level of force needed to recover your property, and if
    attacked defend yourself.

    I have no clue what the law in PA is. Common sense seems to me to say that
    if someone comes at you with a knife after being confronted by you for stealing your car,
    your use of force is self defense. YMMV and WILL VARY, by State.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    A quick search of PA statutes says that you can pursue the person after they commit the theft. So by limited reading the shop owner was fine with following them.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    Many (most?) states will not allow a self-defence defence while you are committing a felony. So the guy pulling a knife on the guy that chased them is not 'self-defence'.

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    ... "when things don't go your way, shoot..." yeah, I'd say that was good, and when a car thief stabs me, I'd say that was surely "things not going my way..." 3 against one attacks require a bit of levelling the field...what do you think the outcome would have been had he not been armed??? the perp wasn't shot for stealing the car...he was shot for stabbing the owner when asked what he'd done with it...different crime altogether...

    Quote Originally Posted by tommynoll1991 View Post
    My thoughts exactly. The shooter did call 911 before he went after the BGs. There were three in the stolen car (kids 18 - 19). Apparently it's ok to chase, confront and when things don't go your way, shoot. At least no one was killed over a car.
    ...all's well that ends well: Three Tamaqua men receive prison sentences | Times News Online
    USM1976 likes this.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommynoll1991 View Post
    I was wondering what this forum thinks of the circumstance. Can you chase after a car thief, confront them, have them assault (stab) you and then shoot in self defense in PA? Just wondering what you all may have done.
    In the current climate, this past decade at least, it doesn't really look good to go chasing down a criminal suspect only to end up having had used lethal force against that criminal. No matter what the statutes say.

    But the reality is, in most states where I've looked, the basic statutes are like this: so long as you don't unlawfully provoke another to violence, so long as you aren't the criminal in the situation, you are lawfully justified to protect your very life with force, up to and including deadly force.

    But the reality also is, that if you find yourself having chased down a criminal (ostensibly to retrieve your property personally), it's going to get difficult to distinguish between that ostensible cause, being seen as taking steps that "provoked" the situation (for lack of a better term), and actually desiring to harm the criminal. Tough distinction, made all the harder with a dead or dying perpetrator lying in the gutter or on a slab.

    In such a situation, personally I can easily discern the difference between the original crime (the robbery or theft) and the subsequent crime (aggravated assault / attempted murder). But the law doesn't always do so, particularly when humans who weren't there get to determine the reasonableness of one's actions.

    Take a simple variant of the scenario: confronting someone burgling your car, demanding he stop, then being confronted with a deadly weapon and threat of death. Seems simpler, since it doesn't also involve chasing down the criminal in order to stop the theft of the vehicle. And therein lies the problem, I think, with how many will subsequently view our actions when asked to consider reasonableness. Fact is, though, the criminal created caused the problem, committed the crime and and upstanding citizen stood up to stop it all from happening, despite escalation from burgling/robbery to aggravated assault and attempted murder.

    I'm all for this concept: that upstanding citizens every right to attempt to stop a crime against us; that we also have every right to additionally defend against unjustifiable and unlawful escalation by a criminal against us, even if that defense requires deadly force; and we need not be presumed guilty merely because the original perpetrator happened to end up getting the short end of the stick. But not all the statutes are written that way, and frankly some of the states have horrible potholes we can all fall into, if we dare believe we're "scot free" when seen chasing down a criminal and find ourselves succeeding.
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