CCW against unarmed BG

CCW against unarmed BG

This is a discussion on CCW against unarmed BG within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Another incident of a CCW against an unarmed BG . Tricky stuff. Would you really be able to shoot him point blank when he is ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array perfection's Avatar
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    Unhappy CCW against unarmed BG

    Another incident of a CCW against an unarmed BG. Tricky stuff. Would you really be able to shoot him point blank when he is unarmed?


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    A threat to life is a threat to life . . . no material weapon required. How many people have been beaten to death by fist or foot alone?
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    Member Array XD9rottie's Avatar
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    CCW against unarmed BG

    I think it's an excellent example of why knowing your local laws is so important and how the law and morality can differ. . Back when I first did my CCW class the laws were a little more strict on my state. My instructors advice at the time was something like: "unless that other person being attacked is your immediate family or has your last name, call 911 and be a good witness". As is said so often, you are NOT the police.

    Morally, the guy did great, probably saved this woman's life. Legally could be a murky question depending on the local laws. So knowing what the law says and then thinking about scenarios like this one * before your faced with it * can be of great help.

    Since my class the state has passed castle doctrine, then more recently relaxed the standards under which it applies, but I find myself mentally falling back to my original training, of being a good citizen by calling 911 and assisting the police with being a witness.

    Again, morally, the guy did great and stopped a brutal attack. I'm no lawyer, and I wish I could talk to one and run various scenarios past him/her (for free cause that's expensive!!)


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    The male attacker was kicking a woman in the face and head. He probably would have killed her if not stopped.

    I can't imagine any jury expecting the CCer to go into hand-to-hand combat with this attacker, or faulting him for intervening in order to save the woman's life. If criminal charges were pursued against the CCer who saved the woman's life, I would expect the kind of public outcry that gets laws changed and gets people fired.

    Of course, this is coming from the deep south, where there is still an overwhelming consensus on who the criminal is in this kind of scenario. I'd hate to live in a place where such things have become perverted.
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    Member Array XD9rottie's Avatar
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    CCW against unarmed BG

    It's sad that this is now the world we live in. A good upstanding citizen (such as myself) has a fear in my head that I could go to jail for saving someone's life. We truly let our kids down didn't we :(

    Imagine if things had been slightly different, for example: maybe the woman had pulled a knife or gun o. The guy to rob him, and our fearless CCW pulls up and only see's the man kick the woman. All the sudden he's pointing a gun at a victim. Yea it's far fetched, but stranger things have happened. 10 years ago I would never have believed that the Feds would jail a man because his AR malfunctioned.

    Another good source for how the innocent are convicted is to watch the YouTube videos about "Never talk to the police". A law professor and a detective talk to a law class and outline some very interesting hypotheticals.

    So getting back to reality, I had something of a similar thing. I was in my parents driveway when I hear a woman scream and yelling. Look up the street and there is a guy and a woman on an SUV and they apparently are fighting. Immediately I think he's attacking her and I start running that way. The guy gets out of the car and starts walking away. The woman flips me the "bird" and speeds off tearing up the tires. They had a huge fight. I thought the man was the aggressor from my point of view and it turns out the wife was. He came over and called the police from my cell because she was drunk. Fortunately the police caught her a few blocks away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    A threat to life is a threat to life . . . no material weapon required. How many people have been beaten to death by fist or foot alone?
    FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

    Apparently 700+ per year.
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    In my state the law clearly states I can use my firearm to stop a felony in progress. Assault qualifies. The person in this article showed greater restraint than I might have. If I had my gun on a "woman beater" I would find it hard not to put a few rounds center mass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD9rottie View Post
    Imagine if things had been slightly different, for example: maybe the woman had pulled a knife or gun o. The guy to rob him, and our fearless CCW pulls up and only see's the man kick the woman. All the sudden he's pointing a gun at a victim.
    My CCW instructor gave a very similar example... "You're walking down the street, look down an alley and see a guy standing over another guy with a gun, what do you do?" You call 911 because you have no idea what the situation is... was the guy having a gun pointed at him a victim or was he a robber who had his gun taken away from him? You may end up helping the wrong guy... and endangering yourself in the process.

    It does make you wonder and think twice.
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    CCW against unarmed BG

    Here's a thought (depending on the neighborhood), it might have been tactically unsound as well.

    Imagine for a moment, maybe this guys a banger and beating one of his "ho's". Maybe all his buddies just got done cleaning their Mac-10's, Tec-9's, and AK's in the house behind him...


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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    A threat to life is a threat to life . . . no material weapon required. How many people have been beaten to death by fist or foot alone?
    More than have been killed with an AR... shocking, I know!
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    In this case the carrier was extremely lucky. The BG followed directions, although hesitantly. Since the carrier was not carrying with one in the chamber the outcome could have been much different if the BG had of decided to challenge him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD9rottie View Post
    I think it's an excellent example of why knowing your local laws is so important and how the law and morality can differ. . Back when I first did my CCW class the laws were a little more strict on my state. My instructors advice at the time was something like: "unless that other person being attacked is your immediate family or has your last name, call 911 and be a good witness". As is said so often, you are NOT the police.

    Morally, the guy did great, probably saved this woman's life. Legally could be a murky question depending on the local laws. So knowing what the law says and then thinking about scenarios like this one * before your faced with it * can be of great help.

    Since my class the state has passed castle doctrine, then more recently relaxed the standards under which it applies, but I find myself mentally falling back to my original training, of being a good citizen by calling 911 and assisting the police with being a witness.

    Again, morally, the guy did great and stopped a brutal attack. I'm no lawyer, and I wish I could talk to one and run various scenarios past him/her (for free cause that's expensive!!)


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    To me, it's a matter of character. I would probably feel better sitting in jail rather than thinking "I could have saved her" for the rest of my life. It would be a nice feather in the cap on judgement day when asked, "What did you do to love thy neighbor?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by perfection View Post
    Another incident of a CCW against an unarmed BG. Tricky stuff. Would you really be able to shoot him point blank when he is unarmed?
    Yes, indeed, if the deadly threat were legitimate and immediate. What possible difference does it make if the person trying/threatening to kill you doesn't happen to have a man-made tool in hand to assist in the dirty work? If the person's capable of making good on the attempt, is right there and fully able to begin (or has begun already), and you're only moments away from being at very real risk of loss of life ... damned right I'd defend mine. Sux to be him, to get his back up so badly yet to come so unprepared for resistance. Not my problem.

    My only problem is to survive the encounter, hopefully with as little force as required to halt the violence. If that happens to occur the instant I move my hand to my weapon, wonderful! If not, not. That's the way these things can go.
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  14. #14
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    I think he did what was right and prudent for that scenario. Good samaritan laws were passed to protect people from prosecution when in good faith they were providing aid to others. The laws should also apply in cases of violence such as this one.
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  15. #15
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD9rottie View Post
    It's sad that this is now the world we live in. A good upstanding citizen (such as myself) has a fear in my head that I could go to jail for saving someone's life. We truly let our kids down didn't we :(

    Imagine if things had been slightly different, for example: maybe the woman had pulled a knife or gun o. The guy to rob him, and our fearless CCW pulls up and only see's the man kick the woman. All the sudden he's pointing a gun at a victim. Yea it's far fetched, but stranger things have happened. 10 years ago I would never have believed that the Feds would jail a man because his AR malfunctioned.
    If the woman in this scenario was the initial agressor, at the point where he had her on the ground repeatedly kicking the snot out of her head and body, he no longer is the victim, he is the agressor and his actions are illegal, the good guy would have been justified in doing exactly what he did in the original scenario.

    Our goal is to "Stop the Threat", not beat them to death afterwards. If someone breaks into your home and you get them to submit, you don't get to beat the crap out of them until the police get there, even if you might want to.

    One final thought, on this scenario, and I am not second guessing the good guy in this article, but this is a perfect example of why having less than lethal means like pepper spray is a must in my view if you are going to carry lethal means. Getting him to comply and limiting his ability to come after you is much easier if they having trouble breathing and seeing you.
    MrsHB, ep1953, ccw9mm and 1 others like this.
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