November 14th, 2006 11:30 PM
Firearms in bars, what to do
This hypothetical situation has come up at work, and I thought I would bring it up here to see what the general opinion is.
The bar I work at gets really crowded on football game days, too the point where moving through the crowd can become difficult, and usually when I'm moving through, if someone has their back to me ill put my hand either on their SOB, or at about the 4:00 a couple inches above their waist and ask politely for them to "make way."
If I was doing this and felt a firearm on the person, they would have to be removed from the premesis (it is illegal to have a firearm in Ohio in any establishment that serves any alcohol). We have police doing special duty for gamedays, but they stay outside of the street we have blocked off outside, and from where I usually work its a good 50 yards through the crowd, plus loud music etc ...
But, I wouldn't want to just leave the person, and they would certainly know that they had been made after I made contact with the weapon. But trying to take the weapon from them would introduce it into the crowd in someones hand, as well ad the fact that I know i would put up one ******* fight if anyone other than a cop tried to take my gun.
Thankfully this is just a hypothetical, and hasn't happened to me or any other employee at the bar yet, but stranger things have happened, and it never can hurt to at least have some sort of plan in your head. Just thought I'd see if anyone had any opinons on how they would resolve the matter of getting the firearm out of the establishment without getting anyone hurt/killed.
No, most of us don't have radios except for the one supervisor in each area, and its usually hard to figure out where the other guys are if they are down in the crowd, its much more of a "club" atmoshpere than bar, loud music, tighly packed crowd, ect... so yelling hands and waving for help isn't the most effective method either.
Last edited by buckeye .45; November 14th, 2006 at 11:38 PM.
Reason: Split into para's to aid readability.
November 14th, 2006 11:58 PM
First off, you might "make way" by shoving near shoulder height.
Second, in Indiana, if I visit a bar I'm the one with the gun. I'm usually not there by choice and am never drinking. (I do this at home, sparingly, in private, for those who wish to know). I keep my pistol covered with my arm so that's what you'd feel. However, I know most people don't work this way and would probably appreciate the higher "excuse me" push... for several reasons, in fact. I know I would.
November 15th, 2006 12:01 AM
Not much you can do but note a description, what they are wearing (yeah, a football shirt, but what number, jeans, shoes, watch), a rough location in the bar and then tell the cops. Who knows, maybe this person is off duty LEO, Fed or whatever. You just don't know.
Other than that, your options are limited.
November 15th, 2006 12:33 AM
The number one place I carry is when I go out to the clubs. Ive run into the situation once. (keep in mind im totally legal in PA, cause there is no law against having a gun in a bar....if you have ur permit).....some drunk guy bumped into me from the back....and made some stupid comment.....he was on his way to getting kicked out anyway....but the bouncer heard him.
Bouncer asked me what he was talking about, and i told him that i had a gun.....his eyes got realllly big realllly quick...i told him that i have a permit to carry for self defense....he was uneasy....and grabbed the manager. Me and the manager talked in a quiet corner and once he realised taht I was legally carrying my handgun he said I could stay no prob. The next week there was a big sign "NO HANDGUNS OR KNIFES ALLOWED" So they lost a customer.....oh well
November 15th, 2006 12:57 AM
If it was legal to carry in at bars Ohio, I wouldn't even of brought the situation up. And if it was legal and the person seemed to be of clear mind and not falling down drunk, I would just move on, maybe ask them if they had a permit, maybe. As far as the off-duty LEO's situation, its my impression, with talking to our special duty officers, that they have to follow the same laws as CHL holders while off duty, including open carry in vehicles and following all the restrictions as far as where they can carry. Maybe someone else who is Ohio LE would know this better than me, but that is what they told me after an incident where we had an off-duty LEO have a bit too much to drink and get a little too rowdy and the question was brought up, the off duty LEO wasn't packing by the way.
As far as the hand on the small of the back, it isnt a shove. The only time I or any other employee move anyone with any force is when we are trying to make our way too a fight, or removing combatants. it is more of a way too let the patrons know we are tryin to get through. I'll keep in mind that some people may prefer a higher placed hand, and ill give it a try this weekend. I have worked at several bars/clubs while in college, and never recieved one complaint about how I moved through the crowd, nor have any other employees and they all move about the same way I do with hands lower. This is because it is easier for us to get leverage on someone going from low to high as opposed to high to low.
Yes I'm young, but I know im not superman. I'm not lookin for a magical Ju-Jitsu move by starting this forum, just a general opinion as far as what people with more life experience than me would suggest doing. I don't do the job because I neccessarily like beating people up, in fact if I strike anyone and its not a case where I absolutely have to in self defense, i would get fired. Every customer i have ever had to eject has had a choice of walking under their own power or with me helping them out the door, if i can resolve things peacefully, i do.Its a way for me to make money during college so that i can enjoy my shooting hobbies.
As far as what I have come up with in my head on this situation, it is to keep moving like nothing happened, get a general description and area, and then notify the police.
November 15th, 2006 01:00 AM
I worked as a bouncer for a year and a half at a fairly rowdy poolhall. I never once had a gun pulled on me, thank God. But I had to do much the same thing with having people move out of the way.
I would suggest doing this: When you nudge someone, nudge with the back of your hand. If you happen to catch something that feels like the back of your hand on a grip, just ignore it. Pretend it never happened. Just walk up to your manager, tell him you need to take a 5 minute break to let the officers know about a ptron with a firearm. Then non-chalantly walk outside and tell them what happened. Let them handle it.
I asked a smiliar question to some off-duty cops one night. That was the advice given to me. You never know who someone is or why they have a gun. Imagine someone attempting to grab your carry weapon.... It's just bad news for everyone involved. If for some reason I was required to carry into a bar (say they are a Federal Agent working a cover... or maybe a personal bodyguard with special permissions.... or maybe theyre just some jerk gangbanger), I know I would much rather have a police officer walk up to me and ask me questions than have a bar employee try and grab it. Let the pro's handle something like this.
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"It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008
November 15th, 2006 03:26 AM
Unless you are really feeling around I don't think you can assume that some unknown, unseen (under clothing) object located at the waist is automatically a firearm.
It could be a cell phone or a pager or a Leatherman multi tool..
Usually Americans are safe from illegal search of their person unless there is some sort of probable cause for them to be frisked.
At least they are supposed to be.
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November 16th, 2006 07:02 PM
Well, I can't comment on Ohio law or their LEO policies, but in Arizona, I can tell it's a little different. In Arizona, LEOs are statutorily allowed to carry in any place that allows for on-site consumption, no regard for working or not. My department states in its policies that they are the only "department members" that are allowed to exercise their LE authority 24/7, meaning they believe that LEOs are LEOs 24/7 and retain their statutory priviledges.
It is mostly up to each individual department on whether or not to limit or restrict them for off-duty carry. Ours just happens to give them permission for all rights and priviledges as an LEO 24/7. They do address alcohol consumption by "suggesting" that they don't carry at the same time, but they don't outright ban it. So in my state, drinking or not, on-duty or not, a LEO can carry in a bar.
November 17th, 2006 07:11 PM
Yes, off duty Ohio LEO's must follow the same rules as eveyone else.
November 18th, 2006 01:16 AM
Shoulda gone back to him and asked him what he thought he had accomplished.
Originally Posted by mioduz
No one who wants to take a gun in there is going to walk up and tell the manager he's carrying.
No criminal is going to be convinced to not bring a gun in, if he already intends to do other crimes like robbery, etc.
You were not about to do anything violent with your gun on the occasion described. In fact, you showed him how SAFE and RATIONAL a person carrying a legally carried gun can be.
Essentially, the management of that place is stupid. Be glad you don't go back.
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