Pizza Parlor Fight
This is a discussion on Pizza Parlor Fight within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Rob72
Darwinism in action- the guy on the phone was too stupid to be in public, unattended. Either some stupid has been ...
November 15th, 2006 06:25 PM
LOL that's good stuff...
Originally Posted by Rob72
This goes to show us that no matter how populated or "safe" people assume a place is, there is always a risk. This guy wasn't too bright with his reaction to Mr. Kong or misses Kong either. If he didn't want the snot knocked out of him he shouldn't have played Mr. Tough Guy. There were two assailants. Out numbered. He knew this. Back down, tell them you don't want trouble, sorry, your the Kong, whatever. Find an exit/cover. You don't take two people(especially that size) face to face acting tough. This is survival not who's got the biggest balls. He could have died. What did he expect? He was already slapped from the woman. Did he expect an apology from the guy? I saw this coming back when she hit him. TIME TO LEAVE. He might not have been smacked down had he let his ego go and headed for the door. This is a tough situation because of the crowd. I would not have been on the phone, thats for sure. As for everyone just watching...that's why I carry a gun.
The Problem: When stupid people do stupid things, smart people end up getting killed.
November 15th, 2006 06:57 PM
Tough one to call but heres a long look from my point of view.
Looking at the scenario, it's one thing for Gorrilla girl to say all the gangsta talk she wants, then she escalated the situation by physically contacting Cell Phone guys face after spitting on the shop keeper. It doesnt matter if Cell phone was talking smack on the phone or what, words are one thing but physical confrontation is another. Now if Cell phone guy started it by talking smack about gorrilla girl provoking the attack of Gorrilla girl that might be another story. But talking smack about Gorrilla girl doesnt give Mongo the right to come in and smash the dudes head in. When your a big guy like that, punching someone in the head square on is lethal force and although the audio isnt the greatest I'm sure Mongo is telling cell phone that he's gonna "$^#* him up" as he's pounding the daylights out of Cell Phone. In looking at the law the way it is written here in KY it reads...
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by another person"
(2) the use of Deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under section one only when the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, felony involving issues of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055
(3) Section 3 disusses the admission of prior acts of domestic violence being admissable as evidence
(4) A person does not have a duty to retreat prior to the use of deadly physical force
Now section 503.055 referenced above discusses the use of deady force in regards to your home, dwelling, or car so that doesnt really apply unless Mongo follows you out to your vehicle and tries to smash his way in so he can beat on your head some more .
Now I'm 6'1 and 200 lbs and in pretty decent shape and I can tell you if Mongo was workin me over like that I would be afraid that he was gonna kill me or at least seriously hurt me. The guy tried to leave the pizza place and Mongo while in the process of smashing the guys face in pulls or knocks him back in and then continues to pulverize the guy, although cell phone screwed up in the first place by looking away when Mongo was up in his face and then screwing with the damn phone some more, his attention should have been on Mongo at that point and trying to be aware of the other things around him secondly since Mongo may have some Gang Banger buddies outside rolling with him.
Technically Pizza Guy after being spit on and seeing Mogo having his way with cellphone probably could have acted in defense of Cell phone since cell phone was obviously unable to defend himself, Call the Cops and tell them that Mongo is in your store trying to kill a guy, pull out the pump action from under the breadsticks and tell Mongo it's time for him to leave, if that doesnt work put a deer slug in his knee and Mongo is gonna be down for the count. Although Mongo and his buddies are gonna be back Gangsta Style as soon as Mongo gets fitted for his artificial leg replacement.
As for cell phone, again he tried to retreat, and more than likely he did so because he feared serious if not deadly injury to himself, just imagine him thinking to himself in between punches " Oh God this guys gonna Kill Me!" So if it was me I'd prob get to my feet and get some distance between me and mongo, draw and get the target in sight and then tell him to get away from me you crazy SOB, you know Mongo is gonna either wise up and back off, or tell the guy "I'm gonna kill you now suka!" then not only has Mongo just beat the living crap out of you, but also stated in front of a dozen sheep and a video camera that he is gonna kill you. At that point you got a couple of choices of either giving him two in the chest, shoot him in the knee and down he goes, or use the opportunity to get the hell out of dodge and get your buddy to drive you to the Hospital and call the law. I'd say if Mongo doesnt have a problem beating you down like that over what was probably nothing, he's got a few priors on his record.
Just my $.02
November 15th, 2006 10:05 PM
Ditto: nightmare situation that could happen as suddenly as it did there.
I'd like to think I'm situationally aware enough to be able to withdraw in such a case.
Sure, I feel for the guy who got hooked by the 400-lb guy. But he didn't exactly go to pains to extricate himself from her face, when he was blowing up. Got cold-cocked for his in-yo-face "diss" of the miss, by the 400-lb guy. The mere fact he was clocked doesn't mean he's a victim. All three of them brewed the cup; IMO, all three have culpability. The 400 pounder did the bulk of the pounding and was caught on film delivering the first roundhouse. So, obviously, he should be in chains. The woman, though, created the situation, elevated the violence, drew her 400-lb cohort into the situation and then went on to kick him while he was down in a two-on-one assault. She should be in chains.
The idiot who got in her face and got clocked? IMO, he had some culpability in the escalation.
No matter. I carry for me and mine, primarily. In an enclosed space like that where a situation was brewing, I would absolutely hope I'd exit and withdraw to have tactical advantage. Draw/warn in such a place, close-quarters and all, with many people milling around, with an unknown number carrying weapons, being affiliated with each other (aka, gangstas)? Not on your life. Certainly not on mine.
If I were the guy who got clocked? Sux to be that guy. No way would I get into it with someone, like that, particularly copping an in-yo-face posture/speech. When carrying, that's a good way to get killed. What would I do after having been in her face and gotten clocked? If I were to have drawn and shot in apparent self-defense, frankly the camera would have recorded that I escalated and failed to withdraw, and it wouldn't surprise me that a jury would question my thinking to shoot in response to getting struck by the 400-lb guy.
Sure, one has the right to defend against unprovoked attack. Unprovoked attack. But it gets gray and fuzzy on the edges, when one antes up. In a phrase: don't go there. Better that way.
As for similar situations I've been in, a few months back I was at the light-rail station in town and noticed a one-on-one situation developing, with heated words, chest thumping, arms flailing, etc. I withdrew to a safer distance, with a concrete wall behind me on two sides and a clear "out" around one corner of the wall. This area is known for homeys in multitudes, and they can rush to assist a friend in "need" very quickly. Nothing developed, as they calmed down and separated. Petered out, thankfully. Had it escalated? It's not worth separating two barnyard cocks. That's a perfect recipe for receiving two-on-one punishment in repayment for the kindness. Such situations are what police are for, unless the violence careens in my direction. Then, it's defend to whatever degree is necessary.
Last edited by ccw9mm; November 15th, 2006 at 10:21 PM.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
November 15th, 2006 10:39 PM
I agree that the best option is a good exit strategy, and I'm not one to get all puffy over somebody yellin at me, I think it just shows how stupid they are, all I'm saying is that if She-Male was yellin at me for whatever reason and then Mongo came in and began pounding my skull into mush, and I didnt have an exit, then Mongo is either gonna back off or he's gonna be bleedin along with me. Pullin the piece out is always the last and worst option and the one thats gonna carry the most repercussions. But if it came down to me or him, I'd rather it be him. From a non lethal approach use Mongos weight and size against him, in a situation like that I say anything goes, gough the eyes, knee to the groin, throat gough, plastic fork in the face, whatever it takes. Get him down to the ground and he's not gonna be able to get up too quick. Cell phones mistake was he let Mongo get the upper hand on him by paying more attention to his phone rahter than the 400lb Monster that was obviously getting ready to make a move. As soon as Mongo walked in that should have been "Code Red" for Cell Phone guy to put the phone down and start focusing all his attention on the two people at hand. Right before he gets drilled he puts the phone up to his left side of his face with his right hand, obstructing his view and putting him in a bad position, then he looks down at the phone instead of watching Mongo and thats when Mongo lands the first punch. Bad Move Cell Phone Guy.
November 15th, 2006 11:38 PM
Bad situation for sure.
I'm pretty sure I could take him. I'm 6'1" 215# and in good shape. I have had my facial bones smashed in by a steele pipe once and it didn't knock me out. (now that the steel plates have been removed, I'm good as new..lol) So, I don't reckon that he could do it with his big fat fist. No one has ever hit me a second time without interuption. I've mixed it up with a few Big 'uns before and came out fine. If you climb 'em, and make them carry your weight they get winded fast. You just have to be faster and meaner than them.
Of course the wild woman would be a wild card in this one, but I can't take being hit without returning the favor.
Then again, if that woman would have slapped me in the face the way she did that guy in the video, I would have taken her out first and situations would have been different anyway. No one (man or woman) needs to put their hands on me without an invitation. I don't tolerate it. She slapped the guy, that's battery and is defensible.
If I were a bystander, and knew that this man was being attacked for no reason, I would have interviened, but not knowing I may not. JMO
When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.
November 16th, 2006 04:01 AM
I don't mean to be rude netmech but thats a bad idea. How are you going to hit someone in the knee who is swinging at you? That's a tough target for a competition shooter. Not to mention the lawsuit that would follow when you keep Mr. Kong from working for the next 15 years. That's if you could hit his knee while he is running at you and your adrenaline is slamming through you. I can't speak for anyone else but center mass is a more reliable(vitals) and less risky(lawsuit, bystanders) man stopper in any situation. I don't want to provoke an argument, just trying to add realism to this scenario.
Originally Posted by netmechanic
The Problem: When stupid people do stupid things, smart people end up getting killed.
November 16th, 2006 09:17 AM
The original post has people saying they would have pepper sprayed him. Here is a good video of what happens when you introduce pepper spray into a fight...
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of the ultimate CC gun!
November 16th, 2006 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by walther1
(Off topic) - I really feel for LEOs that patrol solo.
Having grown up in NYC, as a kid, I thought that the norm was 2 man patrols.
Of course 2 man patrols are the exception in most places now.
I think it takes a lot of stones to hit the streets every day by yourself. I know that backup is always available, but spontaneous situations like this one can happen any time.
November 16th, 2006 10:55 AM
No argument provocation taken, I'm just sayin that if you dont want to kill the guy then pick an appendage, although Mongo drags his knuckles he cant walk on them. Leg, hip, knee, foot, thigh. Our bodies are hydraulic powered, sever a hydraulic line and that part quits working. The guy has legs like tree trunks and your 10 feet away, if it comes to that feverd a pitch a double tap to the sternum is gonna look worse to 12 honest men and women than a non lethal shot. Also if your defending yourself in Ky I dont think Mongo could come back on you with a civil suit, and if he did then he should have thought about that before beating the pulp out of ya in the first place.
Originally Posted by Bando
November 16th, 2006 11:21 AM
This is a nightmare tactical situation. This type of problem is exactly why I preach that you need to have more tricks up your sleeve than a firearm. Pepper spray would have done you no good here.
Yes, shooting one in the knee is a Hollywood idea, I can't believe I read that here on this board.
November 16th, 2006 12:20 PM
I think it's being taken a little to literally, All I'm saying is that rather than double tap the COM and hoping you dont double miss and more than likely double tapp one of the other people that from the looks of it are wider targets anyway I'd go for the non lethal shot first, forget the Knee, go for the leg OK. But if double tapping is what you feel is necessary then go for it, difference of opinion thats all.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
November 16th, 2006 12:32 PM
Considering that the BG in that video kept coming after the cop shot him (in the abdomen, not a good location for an instant stop, but reportedly very painful), I don't think you can really use it to prove the general uselessness of pepper spray.
Originally Posted by walther1
Off the topic of pepper spray, but I've got to wonder why the cop wasn't carrying a BUG (or if he was, why didn't he draw it when the BG had taken away his gun and was beating him with it) and when he retrieved his weapon, why didn't he clear the jam and shoot the BG again?
November 16th, 2006 12:51 PM
lesson 1 cell phone calls in public are not private
lesson 2 deescalate not escalate, why step up and argue with her your just asking to get beat.
lesson 3 call ahead wait outside no room to manuver inside.
If you were carring you would not have time to do sqaut by the first punch.
If you were a bystander a fist fight that he may have provoked does not constitute lethal force.
November 16th, 2006 01:26 PM
Thanks for the link to the video and the accompanying discussion threads. It makes me all the more grateful to our Mods who keep the trash talk off this board. I don't visit many other discussion boards, and that is a prime example as to why.
November 16th, 2006 01:50 PM
I would have told gorrilla to shut his bi%ch up. I would have then woken up in the hospital.
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