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At the park!

7K views 87 replies 49 participants last post by  tundra 
#1 ·
Keep in mind, I was not armed. I am still waiting for my acceptance letter in the mail... grrr.

I took my 2 year old son to the park the other day. It was beautiful outside, so there were tons of people.

When we pulled in and parked and as we were getting out of the car a man started running towards the parking lot and waving down one of his friends that was driving down the road.

The friend pulled in and parked one spot away from my car. My son and I made it to the play ground; I turned around and they were running around my car putting their hands all over it. The one guy was trying to stay away from the others. I guess they were fighting or play fighting, who knows. I yelled at them to stay off my car. (I just got a new car, so I'm a little protective!) I had to yell at them several times before they finally backed away. There were 3 guys in total, mid 20's I'd say. I don't think I would have said anything to them if I was carrying at the time; probably just call the police.

I told my son it was time to leave; I didn't want to have to deal with it anymore. The guys had started heading to the playground as we decided to leave. We got to my car, and I noticed they started heading back our way. I quickly got in the car and locked the doors. I started backing up, and they would deliberately stand behind me to keep me from backing up. I finally inched back far enough to turn and get out. I started heading for the exit and a guy got in front of my car telling me to roll my window down. He wouldn't let me leave. I just kept shaking my head no and motioning for him to move. He finally did and I bolted out of there. My fiance suggested in that circumstance if I was armed; to call the police the second all of this started and to also lay my gun on the dash when he was trying to get me to roll down my window.

That was a scary situation for me, especially since my 2 year old was with me and I was unarmed. At the same time.. what if I would have had to use lethal force? There were kids and people everywhere. In hindsight I like to think if they just saw the firearm they would have thought twice about messing with me and I wouldn't have had to do anything. But, I know you can't think that way if you carry. You need to be willing to use it.

What would you guys have done in this situation? Gun or no gun. And honestly hindsight is 20/20, I should have called the police instantly anyway I guess.
 
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#2 ·
Run him over.

Calling the cops would be the ideal thing to do. Get a license so you could find them for insurance purposes if anything happened to your car. These are the types of people who need to get Molly Whopped and taught a lesson, but it doesn't seem to happen often enough.

Glad you and the little one are safe.
 
#3 ·
Armed or not, I would have said something with them messing with my new vehicle. Carrying does not mean muted. Should they have wanted to pursue it further, then I would have been on the line.
 
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#4 ·
Do not take this as me being mean. Next time keep your mouth shut. Armed or not. You could have just left when you saw them messing with your car. What you did, was turn a non-situation, into a situation....
 
#11 ·
Do not take this as me being mean. Next time keep your mouth shut. Armed or not. You could have just left when you saw them messing with your car. What you did, was turn a non-situation, into a situation....
Definitely agree with not starting a situation. But she had just gotten there with her kid to play at the park. Not sure if I would have just turned around and left immediately if some guys were playing ring around the rosey with my car. I would have just said, "hey, do you guys mind, I just got that car". If it had escalated, then yes, I would have gotten out of there especially if I was carrying.
 
#6 ·
Yeah, I would have said something about them messing with the car no matter what. Laying the gun on the dash is iffy. If they're blocking me from getting out, I'll call the cops and sit as long as they're not menacing me in any way. If they brandish a weapon or show intent and ability to harm, I'd run them over. Your vehicle can be both your best weapon and your fastest escape at the same time in this case.
 
#7 ·
NEVER display your weapon unless you are in the process of using it. Good way to get arrested for brandishing a firearm. Unless you are in fear for your life, showing your weapon is a very, very bad thing to do. Also......NEVER assume that you will be the only one in the game with a gun. What would you have done if you had placed your gun on the dash.....while each one of them then produced their pistols? You then just turned a verbal confrontation into a gun fight. Not good.


....always be aware that for every action on your part, there will be a reaction on the part of guys like this. You ask them to get away from your car, and their reaction was to "mess" with you.....and you have no way of knowing if THEY were armed as well. Could have escalated ugly real fast. While I understand the whole new car thing, it would have been more prudent to say nothing and get your 2 year old and you in the car and leave while dialing for the police. Sometimes, eating a little pride
is the best way to possibly save your life.
 
#8 ·
Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).

Sounds like it was getting pretty close to kidnapping. I would call the mayor and file a complaint with him/her. Some parks are geared for small children, some for teens and adults. I would just take my child to a park for children and stay out of the ones that have a bunch 20 year old men hanging out. Not to stereo type, but folks that age hang out at parks and drink and smoke pot.
 
#9 ·
I agree with you on not starting a confrontation. Like I said, hindsight is 20/20. I didn't want to head back to my car while they were around it though. It takes a few minutes to put a kid in a car seat with my back turned ya know?
 
#12 ·
The way I see it, your child is the primary concern in all of this. This could have gone really bad for you, but your 2 year old was with you. I hate to imagine that.....
 
#10 ·
Weapon on the dash not a good idea. That could be construed as "brandishing". That could get you into deep hot water with the cops.
 
#16 ·
Your reaction should not change because you are armed. If the threat warranted you calling the police while armed, you should have called the police while not armed.
 
#20 ·
Im new to this as well, so pardon if my questions are a bit silly. Someone had earlier stated that Liz (OP) turned a non situation into a situation. A few 20 somethings putting hands all over my car would seem to be the beginning of a situation. Asking them to stop should end it. If they continue on, aren't they the agressors here? Besides, if 3 20 something men were all over the car and refusing to let her move forwards or backwards, doesn't that justify desparity of force, especially with her 2 year old? They didn't seem to have a deadly weapon out, nor did they seem to be beating on the vehicle, just them being jerks, so I don't know if pulling the firearm at that point is warranted, but it seems to be a really thin line.
 
#28 ·
Very good observation. Everybody's level of fear is different. There are so many opinions as to what who would do in these situations....brandishing a handgun came-up a few times. Let me tell you this, if I were a responding officer in this incident, AND, big AND, these fools were stupid enough to remain to complain, I would tell the female with her child to wait while I had a very close up and personal talk with these idiots and their testosterone.

Let's put it this way...if it were your daughter or wife what would you do ? Geeesh, you guys give cops a hardline...most of them have a lot more commons sense than you give them credit.
 
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#21 ·
First, Harryball was spot on, calling the police should not be determined by whether you are armed or not. Why not call the moment you felt that there was a "situation" where your safety was a concern? Wouldn't it be far easier to tell arriving officers that the threat had left or at least point them out or a general direction of travel? They were willing to bully you, do you think they would not do that again to someone else that may not be able to handle the situation? Your call could stop them from escalating their bravado with the next person.

Second, when you have a child in tow is no time to be standing your ground because it's your right. The safety of the child is paramount and getting out of a situation without harm to them is the priority. You did well by maintaining your cool and leaving under stress!

Having a firearm brings a whole new list of concerns and gives you the ability to protect yourself in the most dire situation but as you saw, it's not always black and white as to what is that "most dire" situation.

All in all you did very well. The only thing I would say is to not be so hesitant to call LE. They would much rather show up to a non-event than be called to clean up after an innocent person was the victim of a violent assault.

Edit to add, as Harryball said, this isn't said to say you did wrong, it's purely said to share a point of view that I pass along to all of my classes. It's always better to error on the side of safety.
 
#22 ·
the only thing i can see that you should have done differently is to dial 911 the minute they obstructed you from leaving. everything they did up until that point, while rude and crude, did not present an immediate threat. i would agree with a previous comment that holding you there against your will comes very close to kidnapping. i would hope that in an urban setting (city park?) a 911 call from a young mother with toddler in tow being harassed and victimized would have gotten an approaching siren within earshot very quickly, and probably caused them to split. in the meantime you could have used your cellphone camera to start snapping pictures of them, as many as possible. if it escalated at any point to them actually trying to gain entry, i see three possible scenarios. 1) you unarmed: run them over them and get out of there. 2) you armed: run over them and get out of there. 3) you armed but unable to flee for any reason with them still trying to get in: draw your weapon and commence firing immediately to eliminate the threat. displaying a weapon for any other reason than to fire in self defense is ill-advised on many different levels.
 
#72 ·
This is a very difficult situation for sure. I totally agree that putting your gun on the dash is NOT an option. In some states a gun that is in a car is considered concealed. Michigan and I believe Wisconsin for example. Taking the gun out to intimidate them, even though they were harrassing you IS usually considered brandishing. A better, but still last resort might be to discreetly uncover your holstered weapon out of sight of them before you approach your car to leave. In Michigan open carry is allowed, and the odds are they would not know if you had been open carrying or not when you exited your car. When you approach your car to leave the gun might persuade then to go bother someone else. Again I am not saying this is a god idea, but is is an option.

OldandintheWay mentioned taking pictures of them, this and also taking down the license plate number is a good idea, except that it also is liable to esculate the situation. They see you taking their picture and plate number and it's just going to make them more agressive. This really is a no win situation.

As far as leaving as soon as they strated messing with your car, I realize that you just got a two year old to a park to play, and trying to convince him it's time to leave is going to be difficult and confusing adding to your distraction while getting him his car seat while trying to keep your eyes on three idiots is near impossible.

I think other than calling the police you did about as well as your could. There really is no way to tell how they would react to a threat or a kind request, they either see it as challenge or a sign of weakness.
 
#23 ·
If I saw them paw my car, I would've hit the panic button on my keyfob and let the car's alarm scare them off.
Turn phone on to video, so I have proof if they kick/punch the car.
Avoid confrontation; I don't want both my small children to be a party to any of it.
Anybody trying to deliberately body-block my exit is getting run over. Assumption of the risk. :rolleyes:
 
#25 ·
Run over them is the correct answer, worked for me! When the guy tried to stop me in the parking lot I drove towards him quickly, and HE DID MOVE! They would have moved if you drove at a fast pace in his direction, even backing up.

I'm sorry this happened to you, and I do hope you contacted the police to let them know these guys were at the park doing this.

Hope your permit shows up soon!
 
#27 ·
Your first priority is the safety of your child.

Defintely call the cops/911 and explain the situation. Do not brandish your firearm. That's asking for real trouble.

Nothing wrong with "bumping" the guy out of the way after you have honked the horn the appropriate amount of times and attracted attention from other potential witnesses in the immediate area.

Don't worry too much about damage to your new toy. You have insurance don't you?

We all have a tendency to get to protective of our "stuff", but unfortunately many times that makes us temporarily lose sight of what's really important.

Something like this does not rise to the level of having to use or even threaten the use of lethal force.
 
#31 ·
Just FYI, I would not even consider using a firearm to protect my car. It didn't scare me until they blocked me in while my son and I were in the car. But now, because of everyone's comments I know better ways to handle this situation.
 
#29 ·
My question, which affects how to react from that point on, is what did you say to them? How did you ask/tell them to get away from your car?

If you asked politely but loudly, then they escalated the sittuation. If you demanded or yelled rudely, then you were the escalator and would then be in a more difficult legal sittuation. Once you escalate, it is harder to defend your actions in court. But not impossible.

Flashing your gun is not a good idea unless you would be justified in using it. Even if you would be justified, your vehicle is sometimes your best weapon. Why sit in one place and shoot through your vehicle, when you can hit the gas, simultaniously breaking the hold of your agressors (making them get out of your way, or get run over) while also extricating yourself from the sittuation.

Don't get stuck in the one tool mindset. If your only tool is a hammer, then every job looks like a job for a hammer. Be aware of what other options/tools are available.
 
#71 ·
My question, which affects how to react from that point on, is what did you say to them? How did you ask/tell them to get away from your car?

If you asked politely but loudly, then they escalated the sittuation. If you demanded or yelled rudely, then you were the escalator and would then be in a more difficult legal situation.
Not sure I agree with your conclusion. If someone was putting their hands on my personal property ( read the OP) I would damn well demand that they stop. Hard to conceive how that makes me the initial agressor.
 
#32 ·
I'm glad nothing really bad happened. I have a few thoughts to keep in mind.

Another downside to showing your weapon (aside from a potential brandishing charge) is that you lose your element of surprise. The BG can now retreat, retrieve his own weapon (or 3 in this case) and then proceed in a way that is more to his/their advantage. Like follow you home and attack you in the driveway.

Also, try to imagine your conversation with the 911 operator if you reported them running around your car. "Help! Three guys are in the parking lot running around and touching my new car." In some cities, a report like that won't even get you a drive-by later that day. However, you could have reported a possible 2-on-1 fight in progress since you thought that might have been actually fighting. Just don't lie or exaggerate. That could also get you a false reporting charge.

And when they were trying to block you in, just lay on the horn. Not a 2-5 second blast, hit the horn until they move or your battery goes dead. This will likely get the attention of everyone else in the park. I doubt these bullies want that much attention.

These are just my $0.02 worth. I hope you get your permit soon.
 
#34 ·
When you start carrying a gun you need to learn how to defuse a situation before it ever happens. A good way to do this in this situation would have been to call the cops while in the crowd. A patrol car cruising threw the parking lot would have given you a chance to load your kid up and head out.
 
#35 ·
About the carry, when I was in the situation I was in with the guy being outside my car it would have been a very bad idea for me to show my gun that I did have on my car seat just in case he was to somehow break into my car. I'd rather have run over him than to have to had shoot him. When you bring a gun into the situation it changes everything. Like I said, they will move if you drive towards them ~ now you may run over a foot or something but to keep you safe with three men a foot is nothing. It does sound like you and your son were in danger, and I'm glad you are safe.
 
#39 ·
Liz,

Which park?

Which municipality?

StL, or StL County?

Forest Park, or Tower Grove Park would result in a lot different advice than Shaw Park, Clayton Park, U City Park, or any of several others.

Forest Park, or Tower Grove Park - run them over, they probably mean you harm.

Shaw Park (Clayton) - be careful, Daddy's probably a judge.
 
#40 ·
That was a scary situation for me, especially since my 2 year old was with me and I was unarmed. At the same time.. what if I would have had to use lethal force? There were kids and people everywhere. In hindsight I like to think if they just saw the firearm they would have thought twice about messing with me and I wouldn't have had to do anything. But, I know you can't think that way if you carry. You need to be willing to use it.

What would you guys have done in this situation? Gun or no gun. And honestly hindsight is 20/20, I should have called the police instantly anyway I guess.
IMHO : You concern me a bit with several comments you make.... you keep saying " I didn't have a gun with me" ... as if a gun is supposed to solve all problems for you, or make you feel more secure. It gives me the feeling , in a "situation" you might be quick to go to a gun to resolve it. YOUR GUN ... is NOT there to help you solve problems , even if you are scared or nervous about the situation. Call 911 then. It is only there so that you can protect yourself if someone is trying to kill you. I'm not sure you have that point down real well.

Only an idiot gets in front of a 4000 lb car and thinks that's going to do anything. So, you were intimidated by someone standing in front of a 4000 lb car, that you are in control of ??? At that point, the car is a lot more lethal than a gun ever would be.

I think you have some things to work on and your outlook, and hope you take a hard look at it before you start carrying. I think you need some work on how to handle 'confrontation', and some assertive training, and not be like a rabbit ... ready to jump and run at the first sign of someone who might confront you. Confronting you about something, is not a justification for you using a gun to threaten them, scare them, or anything else of that type.
 
#41 ·
You had every right to request they be careful with the car, if you had noticed them risking dinging it up with their "roughhousing." Armed or not, IMO. But, always remember there are pros/cons to every action. They apparently took umbrage at your calling them out for their stupid behavior.

But I disagree with some of the other' replies. YOU did not escalate anything. You were within your rights to request they stop, with the car. THEY then bumped up the pressure by unjustifiably threatening you, refusing your ability to back out without coming near them, waggling the finger at you in the negative, etc. They were clearly looking to pressure you a bit, though unlikely it would have gone any further. Being armed doesn't change that dynamic at all. You didn't contribute to the situation, IMO, other than the request they be careful around the car. Just realize that what immediately followed is what's entirely likely to occur with "toughs" who feel dissed. After all, you're in St. Louis, where that sort of thing isn't unheard of.

But here's the thing: you were female, alone with your young child, apparently an easy target. Discretion can go a long way toward keeping you away from the crazies. Though, in this case, they'd come to you (through your car). You had a choice, to say something or not. They had a choice, to toy with assault of a person or not. You chose a step that was perfectly lawful and non-threatening. They chose a step that was neither, and which you took for what it was. In any such situation, you've got to decide whether it's worth it to you, to say anything about the car, to immediately leave, to do as you did, or something else. There aren't a lot of choices in that situation, if out on your own.

One suggestion, given what you saw: go to such places with another adult who's capable of self-defense as well, if able. You found how vulnerable you can be, if out alone, armed or not. Managing car of your little one if something did blow sideways might have been a bit rough. Something to consider, if you're able to make minor changes in your activities. Though, that said, that sort of situation could easily happen in any parking lot, at any street corner, in any park, in any part of town.

Overall, I think you did fine. Think through the request you made regarding your car, though, as to whether it was worth it, what could have happened. You might find another method would be preferable to you in the same circumstance, in future.
 
#42 ·
They are young... which also equates to immature and stupid and entitled ..... aren't some of you getting that ? BIG SURPRISE .... LMAO.
 
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