New Video 3 minutes ACTION vs REACTION times revisited PART II

This is a discussion on New Video 3 minutes ACTION vs REACTION times revisited PART II within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I made another video that has more data, multiple examples and more straight forward approach. Although I don't lay out every bit of information you ...

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Thread: New Video 3 minutes ACTION vs REACTION times revisited PART II

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    Member Array GeorgiaShooter's Avatar
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    New Video 3 minutes ACTION vs REACTION times revisited PART II

    I made another video that has more data, multiple examples and more straight forward approach. Although I don't lay out every bit of information you can watch and gain some very important points. Some of the nuggets include how the audio buzzer is a best case scenario. There are no situations where a bad guy walks up and sets off a shooting buzzer. In the real world it's much worse, you may be in low light conditions trying to visually catch a glimpse of a dark object coming out of their concealment. Is it a cell phone, gun, wallet? By the time you realize there is a threat they are either firing their gun or ready to fire. This all happens in about 250 milliseconds or .25 seconds or 1/4 of a second. On the other hand if you had your gun pointed at them with the safety off and finger taking up the slack in your trigger it would still take you around .2 to .3 seconds to react and pull the trigger. In a real situation without the handy dandy shot timer you would depend on your visual ability. Again most gun fights occur at night. Another interesting aspect is walking into a convenience store or robbery in progress and the gunman is pointing at the store clerk. If they decide to whip the muzzle your way that's only about .4 seconds you have to get a shot off. Again, we see reaction cannot beat action and in real life there are too many challenges with adrenaline flowing, low light, uncertainty and visual identification of a threat instead of the convenient buzzer.

    I can't recommend how you battle against this. Obviously situational awareness and training can help you avoid the crime entirely but that may not always be possible. If you find yourself looking down a barrel you may have no other choice but to fight. It may be a matter of moving out of the line of fire, running for cover, drawing and firing with the knowledge you might be hit and your life could hang on pure luck and marginally better skills such as moving while shooting and actually getting hits.

    I think the most effective methods I've seen are ways to physically reverse the roles or turn the tables on the bad guy which forces them to react to your actions. And you may be able to access your weapon then and end the problem. I know 3-4 methods that work for me and I've testing in dry fire sessions with my quite strong and burly son on the lawn. I've even trained my wife to pull a couple of tricks on me, which was not easy given her small size. Eventually her and my son could flip the tables on me very quickly.

    In any case I hope some folks can use this video in some way as a reference. You should go to the range or club and test these times with your own holsters and rigs. Before you can come up with a winning strategy it may be wise to eliminate the sure fire losing ones. Unlike the TV show Justified we can't just lay our hand on our holster while the bad guy has a gun down by their side and wait for them to try to shoot us.

    In real life that Marshall Raylan Givens would have been dead in the first episode, and dead again in most of the other episodes. In fact the shooting scenarios in that particular TV show are amazingly unrealistic. Yet people get permits, buy and carry guns assuming a bunch of things that could get their butt shot off. This video doesn't have the answers but it sure raises all the right questions.


    Action vs Reaction Part 2 - revisited - YouTube

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaShooter View Post
    I made another video that has more data, multiple examples and more straight forward approach. Although I don't lay out every bit of information you can watch and gain some very important points. Some of the nuggets include how the audio buzzer is a best case scenario. There are no situations where a bad guy walks up and sets off a shooting buzzer. In the real world it's much worse, you may be in low light conditions trying to visually catch a glimpse of a dark object coming out of their concealment. Is it a cell phone, gun, wallet? By the time you realize there is a threat they are either firing their gun or ready to fire. This all happens in about 250 milliseconds or .25 seconds or 1/4 of a second. On the other hand if you had your gun pointed at them with the safety off and finger taking up the slack in your trigger it would still take you around .2 to .3 seconds to react and pull the trigger. In a real situation without the handy dandy shot timer you would depend on your visual ability. Again most gun fights occur at night. Another interesting aspect is walking into a convenience store or robbery in progress and the gunman is pointing at the store clerk. If they decide to whip the muzzle your way that's only about .4 seconds you have to get a shot off. Again, we see reaction cannot beat action and in real life there are too many challenges with adrenaline flowing, low light, uncertainty and visual identification of a threat instead of the convenient buzzer. If you come upon a situation where the BG shows gun and fires, hope you are good with your maker, your most likely dead. The only way I see you having a chance is to move. You have to try to change your reacting to him to his reacting to you. Best way of doing that that I know of is changing where you stand, move out of his vision, as he most likely will be having tunnel vision.

    When I say move I mean more than one or two steps to the side. Get off the spot you are standing on rapidly and keep moving. Learn to make hits while you are moving and most likely while the target is too. If you stand still and just try to out draw the shot, you most likely will fail. Not getting hit is your first goal then make your own hits.


    I can't recommend how you battle against this. Obviously situational awareness and training can help you avoid the crime entirely but that may not always be possible. If you find yourself looking down a barrel you may have no other choice but to fight. It may be a matter of moving out of the line of fire, running for cover, drawing and firing with the knowledge you might be hit and your life could hang on pure luck and marginally better skills such as moving while shooting and actually getting hits. Anytime you are in a gun situation you may get hit or killed. This is why mindset is important, knowledge of the fact and the will to fight on is good to have already thought about and made a decision on.

    I think the most effective methods I've seen are ways to physically reverse the roles or turn the tables on the bad guy which forces them to react to your actions. And you may be able to access your weapon then and end the problem. I know 3-4 methods that work for me and I've testing in dry fire sessions with my quite strong and burly son on the lawn. I've even trained my wife to pull a couple of tricks on me, which was not easy given her small size. Eventually her and my son could flip the tables on me very quickly. Those effective methods you think about and think may work need to be tested in some form of FOF, going against live beings, not paper.

    In any case I hope some folks can use this video in some way as a reference. You should go to the range or club and test these times with your own holsters and rigs. Before you can come up with a winning strategy it may be wise to eliminate the sure fire losing ones. Unlike the TV show Justified we can't just lay our hand on our holster while the bad guy has a gun down by their side and wait for them to try to shoot us. TV and movies are poor training advice resources.

    In real life that Marshall Raylan Givens would have been dead in the first episode, and dead again in most of the other episodes. In fact the shooting scenarios in that particular TV show are amazingly unrealistic. Yet people get permits, buy and carry guns assuming a bunch of things that could get their butt shot off. This video doesn't have the answers but it sure raises all the right questions.


    Action vs Reaction Part 2 - revisited - YouTube

    Action vs Reaction times in video are about what I would expect them to be. Good points to bring out for all to consider.
    GeorgiaShooter and Bad Bob like this.
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    Senior Member Array ExaltedOne's Avatar
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    Great vid.

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    Great video and thanks for sharing the video and your thoughts. While we're almost always going to be behind the 8-ball in a defensive scenario and having to react to the situation, mindset and training can help overcome the disadvantage. The other day a guy yanked open my car door by mistake (I shared this in another thread) and my reaction was to yell "HEY!" and move my hand back to my holstered gun. If he had been intent on harm, I'd have only had a second or two to assess the threat and react. I was sitting, seat-belted, and caught off-guard. Not many options to move out of the line of fire.

    Maybe you can make some videos with someone shouting off camera and use that to gauge your reaction time. Things like "give me your money", or "i'm going to kill you", and you can time your reaction. You can also video scenarios using non-firing guns.
    Ben

    Cogito, ergo armatum sum. I think, therefore I am armed. (Don Mann, The Modern Day Gunslinger; the ultimate handgun training manual)


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    I have to agree with you OP. When you are reacting, you are already behind the curve. Thats why some type of movement, designed to take you off line, and still allow you to present and fire, is absolutely the only chance you have.

    I have found this technique to give me the best chance of escaping a bullet, and allowing me to return effective fire when faced with an attacker at close or intermediate range.
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    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    All other things being equal, there are two elements that are relevant.
    1. ALWAYS seek ways to partner up. When a LEO does a stop, he is engaged, anxious, heartbeat is up, reaction time is down. But his partner, back at the rear quarter or at the squad car is not so hyped up, can think clearer, see more and provide cover fire in the event of a problem.
    2. Remember, no matter what if you have a gun with you (i.e. carrying in the house, for example) you are way ahead, compared so an unarmed person. You may get shot, but if it's not fatal, you might be able to prevent getting shot twice.

    The three things to try to acquire are Time, Distance and Cover (or concealment). If no cover is available (such as a tree trunk) at least being concealed behind even a light wooden table, some distance away affords more protection and time than being out in the open.

    Good luck. Nice video!
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    Member Array GeorgiaShooter's Avatar
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    Great post thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I have to agree with you OP. When you are reacting, you are already behind the curve. Thats why some type of movement, designed to take you off line, and still allow you to present and fire, is absolutely the only chance you have.
    It may be a matter of moving out of the line of fire, running for cover, drawing and firing with the knowledge you might be hit
    Good vid & good points.
    I submit however; even moving off the target path/line, seeking and/or looking for cover etc all require (Reaction)

    It would be interesting to see a video with recorded times of various scenarios including lateral movement, retreat movement, closing distance movement etc (Vs.) accuracy.
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    GeorgiaShooter thanks for another great vid!!! I think it tells us if someone has already determined to murder us, really no amount of training, situational awareness can save us.
    However, hopefully none of us will be targeted for assignation and we can use this to pound home the importance of FIRST not getting shot and second fight if possible!

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    Member Array GeorgiaShooter's Avatar
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    I would disagree only with the wording that nothing will save us. I think a better way of saying that is that we must do something different to defeat the attack instead of simply pulling a gun and trying to act like a wild west TV cowboy. Depending on your physical capabilities there are a lot of things we can do that will save us.

    From iPhone

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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaShooter View Post
    I would disagree only with the wording that nothing will save us. I think a better way of saying that is that we must do something different to defeat the attack instead of simply pulling a gun and trying to act like a wild west TV cowboy. Depending on your physical capabilities there are a lot of things we can do that will save us.

    From iPhone
    Exactly. Thank you. Time to set aside 'quick draw' and 'tossing the wallet' ideas. In such cases (from the OP), that is when we need to take the more unexpected action and use close contact tactics (or force on force, CQB, etc). I don't have that training, but it is the next thing on my list, not more shooting training (not that I'll stop what I'm doing).

    In such situations, I think it's the most realistic chance of survival. OTOH, most of us probably do need to be movie heros to successfully take on multiple attackers this way.
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    One think to keep in mind is that when a person is reacting to a buzzer in order to demonstrate deady threat reaction times - that shooter/participant is still consciously aware of the fact that there is going to be a "buzz" coming within the next few seconds or so.

    The ideal reaction time test would be to jump or ambush the shooter on his or her way over to take the reaction time test.

    There is an automatic startle response that will slow those shooter reaction times down even further.

    It is extremely difficult (if not impossible) for any individual to do an override of the ingrained human momentary brain freeze startle response.

    But, the Video still has good value as a demonstration of various body location carry times.

    So you get some Kudos for that.

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    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    Great video - thanks!!!
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    Member Array GeorgiaShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    One think to keep in mind is that when a person is reacting to a buzzer in order to demonstrate deady threat reaction times - that shooter/participant is still consciously aware of the fact that there is going to be a "buzz" coming within the next few seconds or so.

    The ideal reaction time test would be to jump or ambush the shooter on his or her way over to take the reaction time test.

    There is an automatic startle response that will slow those shooter reaction times down even further.

    It is extremely difficult (if not impossible) for any individual to do an override of the ingrained human momentary brain freeze startle response.

    But, the Video still has good value as a demonstration of various body location carry times.

    So you get some Kudos for that.
    Yep we're on the same page and I have probably mentioned this aspect before. I plan on making a PART III using another shooter as a test subject and exposing them to swing out targets that I can change from being a THREAT and NON-THREAT back and forth to test those additional decision trees that will have to be executed in his brain and using his vision. Honestly when you add those factors I expect it to reveal that force on force is your only plausible option when a bad guy gets the jump on you close quarters. Although every training I've ever seen states once a bad guy is pointing a gun at you at 10 feet it's usually game over. In any case I would never just give up unless I had no choice but I might use one of about 3-4 tactics and moves I know to turn the situation around. Unfortunately I turn 50 this month and I'm not the physical brawler I used to be. 30 years ago I could grab their gun and hand and literally break it. Now I have to mostly rely on being a very suspicious SA old bas-turd, LOL. Now granted if I had my wife with me she does have a look that can kill. That would be over kill though.

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    Member Array GeorgiaShooter's Avatar
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    I added a part 3 video today after another visit to the range using my shooting buddy as the test shooter instead of myself. I realize these tests can't duplicate the shock and awe of being in a real situation but having my friend just show up at the range not expecting this little drill, gave me a chance to offer some data that might address questions that arose from the part 1 and 2. Here we see examples of him firing from an audio buzzer, visual pop up target and then adding a decision he has to make whether to fire or not based on a cell phone or gun shape. If you first take the time required for the bad guy to begin moving to the time a gun can be visually detected you have the first piece of time. Then add the quarter second or less for the decision whether threat or not. Then add the fastest possible time you can draw and fire accurately, possibly from concealment. Hopefully not an ankle holster or purse. Funny thing is how these are best case scenarios and we know how things all go wrong at the same time. That's why they came up with the word disaster. Anyway, hope you gun nerds can make heads or tails of this additional part 3 video. It's not as long as this post was ;)

    Action vs Reaction Part 3 Experiment and Results - YouTube

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