Why Bad Guys Win - Va Cops findings.

Why Bad Guys Win - Va Cops findings.

This is a discussion on Why Bad Guys Win - Va Cops findings. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; WHY BAD GUYS WIN GUN FIGHTS Worth repeating....

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Thread: Why Bad Guys Win - Va Cops findings.

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    Why Bad Guys Win - Va Cops findings.

    WHY BAD GUYS WIN GUN FIGHTS

    Worth repeating.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Phaedrus's Avatar
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    Great link and a good read. Pretty sobering stuff. It goes to show that distance favors the skilled shooter, so keeping that distance is important to survival.
    "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    “You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” - Naguib Mahfouz

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    Member Array Nutrodoc's Avatar
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    Excellent article. Thanks Badger. As a former LEO I can attest to the inadequacy of much police firearms training. Ours was a joke. Even as a SWAT officer, we didn't get what we really needed. I'm glad to see some realism creeping into the picture.
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    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    We can only get a slight edge against the 'BG', the true predator. We have knowledge, we might have some experience, but it's sobering to realize that LEOs have a rough time of it.

    That's why I'm now (in the last year or two) such a strong advocate of 'partnering up'. One guy no matter how strong, well armed, experienced is still behind the 8 ball, so to speak. The attacker is going to be 'out front' like a sprinter who jumped the gun, and we are playing 'catch up' the best we can.

    We have to go from condition yellow to red in an instant. Whatever you can do to improve this you should be aware of it.

    AND, it doesn't always mean be faster on the draw. Far from it. You need to gain space and time to deploy your firearm. If the BG is coming at you and you just reach for your firearm, suddenly you are one handed against a two handed adversary. You MUST get the space and time to deploy and THEN deploy.

    Those who have seen Gabe Suarez and Marc Denny's DLO video (an absolute must view imo) know this very well.

    But if you have a partner standing off to the side covering you in some way, then the tables can be turned. As the BG is running at you, your partner, from cover at 90 degrees (for example) has a very clear shot. You are allowed to shoot to protect your loved one.

    Though I am sometimes critical of LEOs, I have a couple LEO friends and have a LOT of sympathy and respect for what the front line officer has to endure. Here, they provide a great resource for us.
    =====

    As a side note, I might add that up to a million potential adversarial incidents (according to FBI) have been stopped in their tracks by the mere presence of a firearm (open carry, display, brandish, low ready, etc.) without ever having to fire a shot. So not all encounters are high risk.




    Thanks for the props. :)
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    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    Great article. Thank you for sharing!
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    "Go for head shots instinctively"

    The 2 places someone's going to be looking are the head (face) and hands.

    So this finding isnt surprising...you are trying to read your opponent's intent.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    "This gives us a better idea of the speed at which officers need to act to
    protect themselves,
    and it raises a very challenging question for trainers:
    How can we get officers to respond faster without compromising good
    decision-making?"

    Not sure I like this. *We* as civilians really need to remember this but I believe that professionals should get and maintain the training the NEED to over come these things. This sounds like an excuse for poor outcomes.


    Like the one here that just settled for $3 million. Cops shot an unarmed man in his bed 16 times. (He survived...which in some ways, is an even worse testament to their skills.)

    Cops went into home looking for a suspect. Walked into a bedroom and when they startled the sleeping man (not the suspect), *they said he looked like he was reaching for a weapon* and shot. The shooting was investigated and found "justifiable."

    After the lawsuit decision (it was settled, didnt go to court), the head of the dept said that 'there were some things that should have been done differently and we are working on additional training."

    Edit: I do not mean that police should not be able and trained to shoot quickly and accurately, I mean it to say that since you will ALWAYS be behind when reacting, then training needs to focus on approaches, entries, more accurate observations, identifying targets, moving and disengaging, etc.
    BadgerJ likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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    Distinguished Member Array chuckusaret's Avatar
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    After the lawsuit decision (it was settled, didnt go to court), the head of the dept said that 'there were some things that should have been done differently and we are working on additional training."
    If this is the same incident that I read about last year a search warrant would have helped. lucky was the guy in the bed and only survived because of the poor marksmanship of the shooters. Hey, the taxpayers are out of $3M and one can only assume the officers involved have received no additional training because of department budget constraints.
    BadgerJ likes this.
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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckusaret View Post
    If this is the same incident that I read about last year a search warrant would have helped. lucky was the guy in the bed and only survived because of the poor marksmanship of the shooters. Hey, the taxpayers are out of $3M and one can only assume the officers involved have received no additional training because of department budget constraints.
    The shooting was last yr but the settlement was just this week. And the $3 million didnt go out yet so I'm pretty sure it didnt affect their training budget
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    Very good information.

    Some might call me crazy, but I have to wonder if video games have something to do with this for the younger ones. Obviously shooting a gun is a different skill than playing a game, but there's an aspect of mental state and visualization that could be impacted, I think. Playing a shooter game is kind of like a pop-up target course, minus the actual shooting, but including targeting, recoil control and response. If a kid spends two hours a night shooting for the head of online players, maybe it translates to their behavior.
    "Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way... The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    It's easy to draw and fire fast, even while moving, if you dont really care where all the bullets go.
    Secret Spuk likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    Very good information.

    Some might call me crazy, but I have to wonder if video games have something to do with this for the younger ones. Obviously shooting a gun is a different skill than playing a game, but there's an aspect of mental state and visualization that could be impacted, I think. Playing a shooter game is kind of like a pop-up target course, minus the actual shooting, but including targeting, recoil control and response. If a kid spends two hours a night shooting for the head of online players, maybe it translates to their behavior.
    You hit on a very good point that Lt Col. Grossman makes about kids and video games. Millions of reps, sight alignment and sight picture, and a bang switch.
    BadgerJ likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array tdave's Avatar
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    The article was enlightening. Thanks for posting.

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    I quit reading pretty early in the article. An untrained bad guy can easily hit the officer in the head but when aiming for the body will miss the area covered by the vest and hit something unprotected due to poor control of the gun? Really? You can hit a head but can't hit a body that is twice as big? They need to work a little more on this before I can even pretend it is of value.
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  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    Good artical. All points that should be brought up every now and then. Even better to share the information with the kaw abiding gun carrying public.

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