When is it brandishing/menacing?

This is a discussion on When is it brandishing/menacing? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Colorado allow CC and OC. If I'm carrying concealed and I sense a threat, at what point would I be brandishing (considered menacing in Colorado)? ...

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Thread: When is it brandishing/menacing?

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    Member Array CJ_mp40c's Avatar
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    When is it brandishing/menacing?

    Colorado allow CC and OC.
    If I'm carrying concealed and I sense a threat, at what point would I be brandishing (considered menacing in Colorado)?
    If I expose my gun for easy access?
    If I rest my hand on my gun?

    I'm sure it is if I draw my gun, right?

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    Ex Member Array IndianaSig's Avatar
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    I've often replied to such posts that there is no conceivable scenario in which you would draw your weapon and not also fire it. If the situation you face allows for the use of deadly force, so be it. If not, there is no scenario under which drawing your weapon would be acceptable. You draw, you fire. Simple as that. I'm still waiting for someone to offer a plausible scenario under which you could draw and not fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaSig View Post
    I've often replied to such posts that there is no conceivable scenario in which you would draw your weapon and not also fire it. If the situation you face allows for the use of deadly force, so be it. If not, there is no scenario under which drawing your weapon would be acceptable. You draw, you fire. Simple as that. I'm still waiting for someone to offer a plausible scenario under which you could draw and not fire.
    That's a rather binary approach, bordering on absolute. You don't know me from Adam and I'm not a 'name' in the gun biz, but if you read Clint Smith's teachings, you'll see where I'm coming from. If you draw your weapon, you need to be prepared to shoot, which is substantially different from a mental mandate that "if I draw, I must fire." If during the draw the aggressor ceases his hostile actions, or turns and runs, are you still going to shoot?
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    Senior Member Array yz9890's Avatar
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    brandishing requires intent. while maybe not a good idea, if you pulled back your coat to provide easier access because you sensed a threat and someone sees your firearm, that's not brandishing. if you expose it intending for someone to see it and perceive you as a threat then it'll come down to why you did that. Generally speaking, you can't accidentally brandish a weapon and exposing it to provide access would come under the definition of deploying the weapon (or getting ready to).

    mine will be hidden from all concerned until its time to use it though. there may be scenarios where I would draw it with the intent to hold fire but I can't think of any at the moment. I'm flexible though.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Unfamiliar with Colorado's statutes or case law. IANAL.

    It'll most certainly depend on the state statutes' language, how vindictive and energetic the DA and GJ tend to be in regards to handling/displaying/drawing in advance of firing, in situations where it's clearly (or not so clearly) justifiable to prep in advance of reasonably-feared impending harms.

    States are all different, of course. Some have no such menacing/display statutes. Some have the GATTTOTP statutes (ie, Going Armed To The Terror Of The Public). Some define it pretty simply, whereas some have definitions worthy of a 3yr old child on drugs. And, many states simply don't specifically distinguish between actual usage/firing of a weapon and mere preparation for doing so, or presentation; though, some do distinguish between firing and drawing/handling in prep.

    In an ideal world, IMO, it should be perfectly reasonable for a person in legitimate and reasonable fear of imminent threat to begin preparations for being capable of withstanding such threats. Should be lawful to back up, present a barrier to the threat, get in an "athletic, preparatory" crouch/stance, get one's hand on one's weapon (ie, in the pocket holster, grabbing the knife hilt, or grabbing the gun butt). And it should be clear that mere preparations in the face of actual, perceived reasonable threats aren't themselves unreasonable acts, as they're not done to specifically unjustifiably intimidate an innocent. Nor should any of these be misconstrued to be actual employment of deadly force. None of that stuff is an actual threat to anyone, except the felon in question.

    But there's the fly in the ointment. Energetic, vindictive DA's and LE in many counties across our states fail to recognize such rationality, and in many states, the "brandishing" type statutes (including the ludicrous GATTTOTP crap) just won't let an upstanding citizen remain upstanding for long when daring to prepare to defend against imminent crimes.

    Safest avenue, when dealing with lethal weaponry: in the gravest extreme only, and that goes for handling/display/drawing. Anything less is entirely possible to get a person in hot water, no matter where you are, except in those states where (a) the statutes specifically support drawing/display as distinctly authorized as a non-lethal preparatory measure; and (b) where the DA/LE folk are known to be rational and non-vindictive.
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    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaSig View Post
    I've often replied to such posts that there is no conceivable scenario in which you would draw your weapon and not also fire it. If the situation you face allows for the use of deadly force, so be it. If not, there is no scenario under which drawing your weapon would be acceptable. You draw, you fire. Simple as that. I'm still waiting for someone to offer a plausible scenario under which you could draw and not fire.
    BG with a knife advancing, not yet within 10 yards.
    "Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way... The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

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    You are returning to your car in a parking lot after dark. As you arrive at your car you see a man with a gun crouched beside it. He does not see or hear you approach. You draw and fire without a word. The man is a plain clothes detective about to take down a drug dealer making a sale in the car next to yours. You just shot a good guy. If you had drawn and "covered" him then called 911 he would be alive. I just don't buy in to your philosophy of a drawn gun is a fired gun.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxwell97 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaSig View Post
    I'm still waiting for someone to offer a plausible scenario under which you could draw and not fire.
    BG with a knife advancing, not yet within 10 yards.
    I have yet to see a state enshrine in statutes where drawing in legitimate fear of death at X yards is lawful while drawing in legitimate fear at X+1 yards is not.

    Where did "10" yards come from? It's not as though that's any more magic than, say, the Tueller experiment's findings (21 ft). Reasonable fear is just that. And based on the reasonableness of the totality of circumstances (demeanor, fitness of the assailant, words/actions of the assailant, proximity, speed of approach, hidden hands, etc), I would think it's reasonable for a person to make whatever preparations that citizen deems necessary at the time, so long as it's not a direct intentional threat to an innocent.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnfat View Post
    You are returning to your car in a parking lot after dark. As you arrive at your car you see a man with a gun crouched beside it. He does not see or hear you approach. You draw and fire without a word. The man is a plain clothes detective about to take down a drug dealer making a sale in the car next to yours. You just shot a good guy. If you had drawn and "covered" him then called 911 he would be alive. I just don't buy in to your philosophy of a drawn gun is a fired gun.
    I know this was hypothetical and not intended to be 100% realistic, but I just wanted to point out that if he didn't see or hear you approach, you could probably just leave the way you came. If a plainclothes detective sees you standing there with a gun, covering him while you fumble for your phone, he will shoot you like a thousand times, or until he runs out of ammo--whichever comes first.

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    Senior Member Array NickBurkhardt's Avatar
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    You are not brandishing if you just switch from CC to OC as long as it stays in the holster.
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    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I have yet to see a state enshrine in statutes where drawing in legitimate fear of death at X yards is lawful while drawing in legitimate fear at X+1 yards is not.

    Where did "10" yards come from? It's not as though that's any more magic than, say, the Tueller experiment's findings (21 ft). Reasonable fear is just that. And based on the reasonableness of the totality of circumstances (demeanor, fitness of the assailant, words/actions of the assailant, proximity, speed of approach, hidden hands, etc), I would think it's reasonable for a person to make whatever preparations that citizen deems necessary at the time, so long as it's not a direct intentional threat to an innocent.
    No place, just an arbitrary limit. The point being someone could be advancing with a knife, yet not be close enough that you have to shoot - yet. In such a situation I would draw and attempt to hold at gunpoint; if he advanced to the point where I did not feel my abilities would allow me to reliably stop his attack, I would fire.

    There is a very limited subset of defensive scenarios where it is a very good idea to draw, and yet not a good idea to fire - but they do exist.
    "Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way... The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

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    Senior Member Array Old_Dog's Avatar
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    When is it brandishing/menacing? When you show your gun to someone who did not ask to see it!
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    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    that's a rather binary approach, bordering on absolute. You don't know me from adam and i'm not a 'name' in the gun biz, but if you read clint smith's teachings, you'll see where i'm coming from. If you draw your weapon, you need to be prepared to shoot, which is substantially different from a mental mandate that "if i draw, i must fire." if during the draw the aggressor ceases his hostile actions, or turns and runs, are you still going to shoot?
    exactly!

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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Drawing does not equate to shooting and training for that might well end with witnesses saying that the BG was backing up or turning to run when he was shot. A very not so uncommon example. BG for whatever reason pulls a knife and advances toward you in a threatening manner. You draw you weapon. BG decides he has the bad form to bring a knife to a gunfight and drops his knife as he sees you draw stops advancing and goes submissive which can happen in the time it takes to blink.
    Shoot the guy because youve trained that every time you draw in SD you fire. Lets add to that that a couple of folks saw mr BG drop his knife in instant before you fired. Good luck with that.
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    Member Array razorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaSig View Post
    I've often replied to such posts that there is no conceivable scenario in which you would draw your weapon and not also fire it. If the situation you face allows for the use of deadly force, so be it. If not, there is no scenario under which drawing your weapon would be acceptable. You draw, you fire. Simple as that. I'm still waiting for someone to offer a plausible scenario under which you could draw and not fire.
    Why are you in such a hurry to shoot somebody? I don't want that on me. If there's time to hesitate after drawing I'd let the bad guy look into the black hole and decide if he wants to run off instead of die. If there's not time to hesitate or he decides to continue his attack then I'd shoot asap to save myself.

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