"Could you? WOULD YOU?...."

This is a discussion on "Could you? WOULD YOU?...." within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yeah, yeah, yeah....don't get into the situation. But if you wind up there, do you take the shot? My answer, FWIW: yes. You can't afford ...

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Thread: "Could you? WOULD YOU?...."

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Yeah, yeah, yeah....don't get into the situation.

    But if you wind up there, do you take the shot?

    My answer, FWIW: yes. You can't afford not to.

    Even with all the "even if's". He WILL kill her if you don't shoot him. He MIGHT kill her if you do. You MIGHT kill her, too.

    Either "might" is better than the "will", IMHO.

    YMMV.

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  3. #17
    Member Array netmechanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    netmechanic, I know you weren't calling ME a child molester, etc. I'm offended by your characterization of MY state. I was briefly stationed at Fort Knox. Great place but Louisville is less than paradise. You simply cannot compare crime stats for the two states. It's like apples and oranges.

    BTW, formatting is our friend. Try and break your statements up into shorter paragraphs please, for these older eyes.

    Also, if your intention is to simply AVOID my scenario...then why not just avoid the thread instead of nitpicking us to pieces?

    We KNOW...we ALL know that it's always better to avoid these things. Sometimes you cannot. I want folks to think about it...because sure as shooting, if you think you can avoid it by simply going other places...it'll happen to YOU.

    Dealing with the questions posed in advance and committing to a course of action is a vital first step to survival as I'm sure everyone here will agree.

    It is like apples and oranges, thats my point, larger populated states have more crime than less populated ones.

    I'm not offended that you say Louisville is no picnic either because its the truth. And I'm not nitpicking at all, you seem to be nitpicking everything I'm saying. Just like If I say that in central L.A. there's more gang related violence than in Siberia isnt saying anything but the truth. I'm not saying that L.A. is the source for all gang violence, And I'm not saying that people born in L.A. are prone to be in gangs.

    Now to answer your scenario, shooting the BG in the eye is far from a guarantee that he's not going to twitch and blow the little ladies head off, Just like when you chop off a chickens head the body doesnt go limp and just lay there.

    But lets pretend it will, then you also have to hope your wife has nerves of steal and doesnt flinch that one hundreth of an inch between her head and BG's eye when you fire. Also think that since you havent been in this scenario your absolutely sure that you know how you will be reacting, hitting targets on a range is one thing but doing it with live people is another, and even the best marksmen miss from time to time usually when the pressure is on.

    So if I'm sure I could pull this feat off then and live with myself telling the kids if I hit mom in the head and killed her, then yes I would take the shot.

    I'm not saying that you shouldnt think about it, and that you shouldnt pratice it, I'm saying that even if I Eat, Sleep, and Breath this scenario, I still wouldnt put myself in this situation. I'm sure everyone would also agree with that.

  4. #18
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    All I know for sure is that if I am ever that hostage... I'm gonna drop like a box of rocks! Let the BG hold me up if he can! I'm faking (or not) a heart attack!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  5. #19
    Member Array tj1231's Avatar
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    I would shoot...I would wait for the best opportunity. Would I be confident in the "eye socket" shot? NO. Would I want my wife to take the shot if the positions were reversed? YES. The childrens' safety surpasses all.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by netmechanic View Post
    It is like apples and oranges, thats my point, larger populated states have more crime than less populated ones.

    Some folks don't have much of a choice as to where they live in most circumstances. In my case, when I retire in a few years we intend to move to western north Carolina. I'll still carry a gun. That's so much a part of me, I'd feel naked without one.

    Now to answer your scenario, shooting the BG in the eye is far from a guarantee that he's not going to twitch and blow the little ladies head off, Just like when you chop off a chickens head the body doesnt go limp and just lay there. Big difference in the chicken illustration. Have you ever hypnotized a chicken? I have. You sure can't do that trick to a person -- simply draw a line in the dust straight up from the beak. The bird will just lay there and stare at it. If you lay a stick across the bird's neck and stand on either end, you can grasp the bird by his body and simply straighten up, ripping the head from the bird. It won't even twitch.

    In fact there IS such a thing as the "no twitch shot." If you break the neural band that encircles the brain and is attached to the Mudulla, you can literally switch OFF the lights without the muscle flex. Generally speaking, there are certain aiming points used by tactical snipers for accomplishing this. The base of the skull (centered in the rear), the bottom of the earlobe from the side and the base of the nose centered on the upper lip, or thru the mouth or thru an eye....the last is the toughest to accomplish, because there is the most amount of bone, muscle and tissue to punch thru before accomplishing the mission. But if that's the only point of aim I've got, I'll take it.

    But lets pretend it will, then you also have to hope your wife has nerves of steal and doesnt flinch that one hundreth of an inch between her head and BG's eye when you fire. If you think about it, the impulse to twitch is almost ALWAYS away from the noise rather than toward. Something instinctual, I'm sure.

    So if I'm sure I could pull this feat off then and live with myself telling the kids if I hit mom in the head and killed her, then yes I would take the shot.

    I'm not saying that you shouldnt think about it, and that you shouldnt pratice it, I'm saying that even if I Eat, Sleep, and Breath this scenario, I still wouldnt put myself in this situation. I'm sure everyone would also agree with that.
    I'd rather have to explain it to the kids than have to explain to them how daddy let them ALL get killed when we're in Heaven.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation I Love It!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    All I know for sure is that if I am ever that hostage... I'm gonna drop like a box of rocks! Let the BG hold me up if he can! I'm faking (or not) a heart attack!
    Love this! That's what I call thinking on your feet! A masterpiece of critical thinking. It's also a good thing to teach the S.O. or wife. If grabbed, fake a "FAINT" and simply collapse. Even a minute sag should open up the target area.....great idea!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #22
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    Yep...

    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Love this! That's what I call thinking on your feet! A masterpiece of critical thinking. It's also a good thing to teach the S.O. or wife. If grabbed, fake a "FAINT" and simply collapse. Even a minute sag should open up the target area.....great idea!
    Same thing...either a fake 'heart attack' or play 'retarded'...any distraction and...BOOM...'That's all folks...'

    'Nuff said...

    ret
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  9. #23
    Member Array aepilotjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    All I know for sure is that if I am ever that hostage... I'm gonna drop like a box of rocks! Let the BG hold me up if he can! I'm faking (or not) a heart attack!
    My emphasis. That's just funny, I don't care who you are. Personally, if I was the hostage,I'd be doing my best impression of someone who just dropped a load in his shorts. Maybe impression isn't the right word....

    If I was not the hostage. I'd have to take the shot. Needs of the many and all that, I can't let my SO's life outweigh my kids. I'd like to think they rank equally. The question in my mind is could I like with the loss of my wife verses the loss of all my family and my life as well.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Needs of the many?

    Quote Originally Posted by aepilotjim View Post
    I'd have to take the shot. Needs of the many and all that, I can't let my SO's life outweigh my kids. I'd like to think they rank equally. The question in my mind is could I like with the loss of my wife verses the loss of all my family and my life as well.
    It's easier for me. Our daughter is grown and married off. On her own, career... the works. Now we're "empty nesters" except for the ever present Newfoundland dogs. Seems we'll never be without those. THEY'RE our "kids" now. lol

    So in the same situation posed, I STILL take the shot. There is simply no other choice.

    Nobody to turn to, nor would I want to run away. Ever see that movie starring Keneau Reeves as the loser football player? THE REPLACEMENTS? Gene Hackman had a great line. More so for the truth of the line: When the game is on the line, a real winner always wants the ball. Of course this is not a game, unless you count all of life as the ultimate game...but I hope you catch my drift.

    My wife and I have discussed this at length. It does help significantly that we share a similar faith in God and a fairly certain knowledge of our final destination. In any case, I simply couldn't live with it if I lost her and did nothing to try and save her. Even the tiniest of chances can often give life to total victory.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array Dakotaranger's Avatar
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    Yes, I take the shot with either my XD9 or either 1911.

    If it's a Glock no, but that's just because I've never been able to hit anything with a Glock. UNLESS he has a car w/right there and is dragging the wife toward it because she would be dead regardless I tried something or not.

    Variation 2 Wilson Combat 1911 if the distances is roughly ten feet yes.

    This maybe taking this beyond the scenerio, but I would hope at some point I would have talked wife and older kids to get at least a K.I.S.S. self-defense class and if my wife could get an elbow into the solarplexus. Then it would be yes on all three. But that's only if it doesn't violate the scenerio
    "[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
    They are left in full possession of them."

    Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~Alexander Hamilton

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Valid Point +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakotaranger View Post
    This maybe taking this beyond the scenerio, but I would hope at some point I would have talked wife and older kids to get at least a K.I.S.S. self-defense class and if my wife could get an elbow into the solarplexus. Then it would be yes on all three. But that's only if it doesn't violate the scenerio
    Everybody should have a layered defense plan. One that starts out nonlethal perhaps and is capable for instant escalation.

    I started my kid out at age nine with some basic self defense that would work on an adult caught unawares.

    I'm in the process of gettin g her some of the new Self Defense modules now being sold by KIMBER U.S.A. as The Guardian. Check them out: http://www.piexon.com/ And be sure to look at the video onsite. I also advocate sudden VIOLENT action to divert attention for a swift response plan executed by myself.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #27
    Member Array kairo's Avatar
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    I'm curious as to whether or not a headshot would stop a persons reflex from firing into the hostage. All I've seen on TV and crap is that the BG gets shot and just crumples. If I were the BG, I think I'd be so tense that the minute I felt the bullet whizzing at me, I'd clench up and fire.

    Can someone sort me out here?
    Nick
    He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day

  14. #28
    Member Array riversdaddy's Avatar
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    I submit that whenever a thread is started under the Tactical Scenarios area, the moderators strictly enforce a no "I wouldn't go to "X" location/be in "X" situation" response policy. I get tired of reading through all that to get to people's answers. Obviously, if we had a crystal ball we would avoid every potentially dangerous scenario, but we don't. Sometimes you just end up somewhere thats dangerous. To answer the actual question, IMO you have to take the shot either way if you have already drawn. It would be nearly impossible to de-escalate that situation when dealing with a psycho. Statistically, I like my chances of hitting an approx. 3 inch area at ten feet over waiting to see if he murders m wife in front of me.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up AMEN!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by riversdaddy View Post
    I submit that whenever a thread is started under the Tactical Scenarios area, the moderators strictly enforce a no "I wouldn't go to "X" location/be in "X" situation" response policy. I get tired of reading through all that to get to people's answers. Obviously, if we had a crystal ball we would avoid every potentially dangerous scenario, but we don't. Sometimes you just end up somewhere thats dangerous. To answer the actual question, IMO you have to take the shot either way if you have already drawn. It would be nearly impossible to de-escalate that situation when dealing with a psycho. Statistically, I like my chances of hitting an approx. 3 inch area at ten feet over waiting to see if he murders m wife in front of me.
    Amen to that!! Double second the suggestion to the Mods!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  16. #30
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    I submit that whenever a thread is started under the Tactical Scenarios area, the moderators strictly enforce a no "I wouldn't go to "X" location/be in "X" situation" response policy
    Yes - I have to agree - tho I guess many of us have added this as a caveat - but it is an obvious one (I hope!), as we all hopefully avoid trouble at all costs.

    Well - let's see if others read this and give it thought - if a scenario is promulgated then let us respond if we choose, as if we are SOL in that situation - by bad luck or even inadequate awareness.

    It may not always get caught tho, as trying to stay on top of everything here ain't always a breeze!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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