"Could you? WOULD YOU?...."

This is a discussion on "Could you? WOULD YOU?...." within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Post #457 from the 9mm v 45 debate gave me the idea for this thread. Al Lowe made the observation that while he could hit ...

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Thread: "Could you? WOULD YOU?...."

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Question "Could you? WOULD YOU?...."

    Post #457 from the 9mm v 45 debate gave me the idea for this thread. Al Lowe made the observation that while he could hit with a 45, he wouldn't want to have to make the shot on some BG who had a hostage held in front of him.

    That gave me an idea. Suppose that you are someplace where there is not a liklihood of police response anytime soon. Maybe a lonely rest stop in rural Florida waaaaaay up in the panhandle of the state along I-10. No facilities so unlikely there will be other motorists around. Maybe no cell phone connection available. You stop with your family to let your puppy "do his business."

    There is nobody else in the area, but the woods are pretty close to the spot where you have parked. It is a clear, sunny day at about 2pm. Very cool temps. The kids frolic with the small Lab puppy in the center of the rest area. They are at least 35 meters from where you are standing and are in the center of the picnic area. You are wearing your favorite carry weapon. Your wife wanders fairly close to the trees and you are about to ask her to move back in your direction.

    Suddenly a figure dashes from behind a tree. You instinctively draw your weapon but before you can complete the draw the individual has grabbed your wife and has a gun to her head! He is near the same stature as his hostage and he uses your wife as cover pretty effectively. He demands your gun (no surprise), all your money and your wife as his hostage for the purposes of "insurance."

    He is shabbily dressed and has the look of a sociopath in his eyes. Like he's not quite in touch with reality. His weapon is a revolver, probably a ROSSI .357 magnum and it is COCKED. The kids haven't seen a thing and you're relieved that they have actually wandered a bit further away. You KNOW there is no way you can let him leave the lot if you want to survive along with the kids and wife. If you let him get control of your gun you're all dead, wife last and it won't be fun for her.

    A cocked revolver is the closest thing to a factory installed "hair trigger." You know that your shot MUST snap the neural band. It MUST be a "no twitch" shot. Your only hope is straight thru into craniocular region. IOW, directly thru his right eyeball and that is peeking out from your wife's right ear. Fully exposed, but only by a hundreth of an inch.

    The range to target is about TEN FEET.

    DO YOU TAKE THE SHOT? Would you take the shot with confidence?

    VARIATION #1

    Let's say that your favorite carry gun is having some work done by your 'smith. So you have another gun with which you are not quite as familiar. Maybe it's a heavier caliber than you're "used to." Now what?

    Remember, a miss by so much as an inch puts the shot outside the eyesocket and risks a diverted bullet. Might just shatter the cheekbone or nasal cavity. In that event there is going to be the inevitable clenched fist and the shot tripped into your wife's brain. The kids have noticed something is wrong. They start moving in your direction. Now what?

    VARIATION #2 (please don't second guess this one; go with the flow)

    Let's say that the gun in your hand is your DREAM gun...the one you've been saving for and wanted to buy for years. It's top of the line (name your wet dream here) but it's never been fired. You just couldn't wait to see how she carried on your hip. When you hold this baby in your hand, you just KNOW how the "Boy King" must have felt when he drew Excalibur from the stone. You know that this is the ONE. But you have no idea where it prints with the ammo you are using. Remember, no room for error. No help in sight.

    Do you take the shot? Do you take the shot with CONFIDENCE?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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  3. #2
    JD
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    Normal Scenario: At 10 feet, if I hold off and keep my msucle tension down, I'd wait for a bigger opening and shoot, no doubt.

    Variation 1, pretty much same ansewer as above except I'd try to close the gap as much as I could.

    Variation 2, no impact, no idea. That would be a stale mate / worst nightmare, carrying something that you've never shot...
    Couldn't do it, thankfully I'd never put myself in that position.

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    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    We train for this all the time. Either with one target in back of the other or small oval shaped targets at the closer ranges.

    Heres what we do. In the worse case the BG would turn his weapon towards you. This would put the"ball in your park". This would force your move,probably before you are ready.

    Even worse than that, the BG would alternate peeking out of either side of the hostage's head. Back and forth fairly fast. I NEVER want to face a BG this smart. But certinly could happen.

    The "best" for me and my training partners would be........the BG has hold of the hostage around the neck like you see in the movies. He simply wants to keep the weapon to the hostages head and is not concerned with being hidden from oncomeing bullets.

    Given >> the BG has a gun >>would presume that it is loaded >>has made the threat of deadly violence >> has assulted the hostage. When his demands are met will he simply lay down his weapon and surrender ?? Think not. In this situation someone is gonna get hurt very badly. It will not be me or my wife.

    I will draw,take safety off,finger on trigger,and advance with sights on his head. I will close with cover if possible. But I will close. When within the range that I am POSITIVE that I can hit a target the size of a hardball I will see if anything has changed in the situation. If it still would be a good "shoot" I will one shot(kill) the BG, right where he stands. To the part of his head that has the most brain in it.

    This is what we train to do. This is what I will do.

    Those of you that don't want me to do this for your loved ones,simply send me a picture of them and I will file it away as someone not to help. -------
    Last edited by RSSZ; November 25th, 2006 at 01:03 PM.

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    Member Array netmechanic's Avatar
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    No offense to anyone but why would you ever let yourself get into that situation in the first place? Alone at a rest stop, In the rest area in the middle of nowhere, and in Florida of all places? And your letting the kids frolic around away from you with the dog, and the wife as well? Next to L.A. Florida is the second favorite retreat of Psycho's and Child molesters. And by pulling into the deserted rest stop and letting everyone run wild you've just made the gun wielding psycho's day.

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    I have often pondered scenarios just like this and have to admit that I am a little ify on taking the shot. You would be shaking like a leaf on a tree, and a little shake with a handgun can put a bullet way off course. At ten feet, it would be an easy shot without stress, but with stress? I would have to evaluate the steadinss of my hands at the time. If I was somehow able to old steady, I would shoot.

    I would not give up my gun, regardless. I would keep it on him and wait for a better opening. Perhaps attempting to circle slowly to get a better angle or at least force him to move. I assume that he is going to kill us all if I give up my gun, so I would have to wait and see if he's gona kill the wife or not. If so, he's dead for certain, and the rest of us are the survivors. I would let him know in no uncertain terms that if he does not release her unharmed, his last breath is quickly approaching. I would force him to make the choice of whether or not he wanted to die. All the while silently praying in my mind.

    Variation one: I dont' own any guns that i'm not familiar with and if I questioned its accuracy, it wouldn't be on my hip. That's why i train with all of my defensive weapons regularly. Tell the kids to run and get help. As i said if he shots her he's dying immediately.

    Variation two: wouldn't carry a gun unless I had ample prctice with it. I have enough that I can't see any reason why this variation would ever happen to me.

    As far as the references to taking the shot with confidence, IMO it couldn't be done with full confidence unless he released or killed the hostage first. If forced to shoot for some now unknown reason, and there was no choice but to shoot, I would not feel confident in shooting anything 1 inch from anyones head under any circumstances, but if forced to take my chances, would do so before I let this guy victimize me and my kids as well as my wife. 1 victim is better then 3 or 4. My wife would understand completely and she would do the same thing, as we have discussed this before.
    I hope it never happens to any of us.
    Last edited by sgtD; November 25th, 2006 at 02:41 PM.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb ~SIGH~ Welcome to the forum....

    Quote Originally Posted by netmechanic View Post
    No offense to anyone but why would you ever let yourself get into that situation in the first place? Alone at a rest stop, In the rest area in the middle of nowhere, and in Florida of all places? And your letting the kids frolic around away from you with the dog, and the wife as well? Next to L.A. Florida is the second favorite retreat of Psycho's and Child molesters. And by pulling into the deserted rest stop and letting everyone run wild you've just made the gun wielding psycho's day.
    I'll try to be patient here. I ASKED you not to second guess the scenario....when I put in variation #2 but it really extends to everything...as most old timers here will figure out. EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED!

    I wrote the scenario to be as NEUTRAL as possible. It could just as easily happen anywhere. Your movie theatre parking lot. As you're Christmas shopping. Anywhere. I wanted this scenario, however to contain only certain variables. No help nearby, for example. No other complications, or worries (secondary innocents for example).

    The point I'm trying to make is how confident are you in your abilities when the life on the line is not your own but something far more precious? How willing are you to respond? How sure are you that you can make that shot under pressure? You'd better plan and practice for this scenario. I personally wouldn't like to put my loved ones in the hands of a SWAT team unless I had no choice. In my scenario, there is NO choice.

    BTW, I LIVE in Florida. I was born and raised here. I don't really appreciate that comment you made about child molesters and etc. THAT offends me.

    I used to be a State of Florida probation and parole officer. You have no idea of the numbers of FELONS with which you come into semi close contact everyday. They sit beside you in church. Stand next to you in the line at the grocery. Sit behind you at the movie theatre. Park next to you in the mall. Smile at you with benign friendship because they're your next door neighbor. You'll never know.

    They're not all scummy, unwashed, psychos who never got past the third grade. Many hold a college degree. Got it in the prison system, too. The prison system in every state is already stretched past the max, holding onto the baddest of the bad. But where do you think they keep merely those who are "BADDER" or just "BAD?" In the community, of course. With overburdened underpaid probation officers. When I was with my deptartment I was responsible for over 300 felons. That means I had to see each of them at least twice each month: One home visit and one visit at their place of employment.

    When I first got to my office, my caseload was culled from the other officers. Back then most probation officers were female. So naturally, I got the most dangerous, misogynistic, and confrontational from each officer. Back then, the job description did not include firearms, but state law defined it as "law enforcement" so my bosses, aware of my army infantry background told me I could carry my 45 on the job, and IF the "shoot" was good they'd back me. That was 1986. Think it's gotten any easier?
    Last edited by ExSoldier; November 25th, 2006 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Response to "netmechanic"
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by netmechanic View Post
    No offense to anyone but why would you ever let yourself get into that situation in the first place?
    Not the question, of course. It can happen to anyone. It's not a matter of "letting" such things occur, as should be clear.

    Well, this situation is a bad hand, to be sure. 10ft? A gunman with my whole family there ... I'd probably take the shot. Still, even a perp crazed and foolish will know the bullet's coming and will take pains to not get hit. He wouldn't just stand there grinning. It would be a tough shot.

    I'd certainly hope to have had the discussion about plans of attack, with my S.O. Without that, the next moments would be very difficult. Otherwise, knowing what was about to come could help us both deal with the results quickly.

    If we had skills in disarming techniques, that's probably the first choice. Otherwise, it would be: take the shot. This is one of the situations most frequently practiced. 10-30ft, roughly stationary target, hit within 2". No guarantees of making a one-shot stop, hence the S.O. would absolutely need to get away quickly in order to open up the shot options once the first shot hit.

    Likelihood of prevailing? Pretty high, but then he's still armed. Anything's possible.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    Shot(s) will be taken on all 3 scenarios... for the safety of the children the BG must go down, at all costs, and fast.

    In my opinion, while the wife / SO is in inmediate danger, if you were to go down, your children would be the next ones to go down (it seems you are the last line of defense in between the BG and the kids).

    Priority #1 - Protect the CHILDREN
    Priority #2 - Protect the Wife/SO, if possible

    My 2 cents

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cagueits View Post
    Priority #1 - Protect the CHILDREN
    Priority #2 - Protect the Wife/SO, if possible
    You're right. It is that simple. Which should seal it.

    This is also why it's so important to have the discussion beforehand. It's gonna go down. Quickly and violently. The S.O. will need to help, knowing what's coming.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Same As cagueits...

    Quote Originally Posted by cagueits View Post
    Shot(s) will be taken on all 3 scenarios... for the safety of the children the BG must go down, at all costs, and fast.

    In my opinion, while the wife / SO is in inmediate danger, if you were to go down, your children would be the next ones to go down (it seems you are the last line of defense in between the BG and the kids).

    Priority #1 - Protect the CHILDREN
    Priority #2 - Protect the Wife/SO, if possible

    My 2 cents
    Except...my wife also has a weapon...one of us will 'take out the trash'. If, for some reason, my granddaughter was with us...God help the SoB who would try to pull off such a scenario. Both my wife and I understand the possibilities, pain and grief, and loss such a threat might create...

    First, I wouldn't let the family out of my reach in such a place...been there, done that...we all stay together! Secondly, this guy's going to die...one of us may also pay a price (we understand that)...but I hope he believes in Jesus, because the 'meeting' is going to be arranged!

    OMO

    ret
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtD View Post
    I have often pondered scenarios just like this and have to admit that I am a little ify on taking the shot. You would be shaking like a leaf on a tree, and a little shake with a handgun can put a bullet way off course. At ten feet, it would be an easy shot without stress, but with stress? I would have to evaluate the steadinss of my hands at the time. If I was somehow able to old steady, I would shoot.
    This is why, I think, practice sessions should be made with artificial pressure. One way is in the competition as in an IDPA club. Our club is a teaching club and we specialize in making up scenarios like the one I posited in my original post. Our course designers are graduates of the MARQUIS DE SADE school of course design and are guaranteed to make you make the SHOT from the gnarliest & most uncomfortable positions you can imagine, with moving, disappearing targets that must be taken in tactical order....

    Or you can simplify things. Have somebody set off a string of firecrackers behind you (if the range will allow this or if you're someplace safe) while you make the shot.

    At the state IDPA match I went to last year (held at a huge indoor range) we had at least three stages in near or total darkness. One was lit only by multiple police lightbars strobing.

    If you're unsure of your ability to make a shot under pressure: Practice under "pressure." As much as you can safely exert.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    BTW, I LIVE in Florida. I was born and raised here. I don't really appreciate that comment you made about child molesters and etc. THAT offends me.

    I was born and raised in good ole FL too. 4th generation living here, 3rd generation born here. I don't apreciate it either, but I don't let it offend me Ex, because you and I both know that most of the perverts, wackos, and criminals here were imported from other places.

    Of course no offense is intended to the good folks who moved here in general, but crime was nearly non-existant when we still had the small town atmosphere around here. Since things have grown so much, there are all types of crimes, drugs and gangs to deal with and most of them learned their trade in another state before they came here. Section 8 housing has't helped much either.

    just my little rant.

    I also agree with what you said about training under pressure, I wish we had somethin like what you described around here.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

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    Member Array netmechanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    I'll try to be patient here. I ASKED you not to second guess the scenario....when I put in variation #2 but it really extends to everything...as most old timers here will figure out. EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED!

    I wrote the scenario to be as NEUTRAL as possible. It could just as easily happen anywhere. Your movie theatre parking lot. As you're Christmas shopping. Anywhere. I wanted this scenario, however to contain only certain variables. No help nearby, for example. No other complications, or worries (secondary innocents for example).

    The point I'm trying to make is how confident are you in your abilities when the life on the line is not your own but something far more precious? How willing are you to respond? How sure are you that you can make that shot under pressure? You'd better plan and practice for this scenario. I personally wouldn't like to put my loved ones in the hands of a SWAT team unless I had no choice. In my scenario, there is NO choice.

    BTW, I LIVE in Florida. I was born and raised here. I don't really appreciate that comment you made about child molesters and etc. THAT offends me.

    I used to be a State of Florida probation and parole officer. You have no idea of the numbers of FELONS with which you come into semi close contact everyday. They sit beside you in church. Stand next to you in the line at the grocery. Sit behind you at the movie theatre. Park next to you in the mall. Smile at you with benign friendship because they're your next door neighbor. You'll never know.

    They're not all scummy, unwashed, psychos who never got past the third grade. Many hold a college degree. Got it in the prison system, too. The prison system in every state is already stretched past the max, holding onto the baddest of the bad. But where do you think they keep merely those who are "BADDER" or just "BAD?" In the community, of course. With overburdened underpaid probation officers. When I was with my deptartment I was responsible for over 300 felons. That means I had to see each of them at least twice each month: One home visit and one visit at their place of employment.

    When I first got to my office, my caseload was culled from the other officers. Back then most probation officers were female. So naturally, I got the most dangerous, misogynistic, and confrontational from each officer. Back then, the job description did not include firearms, but state law defined it as "law enforcement" so my bosses, aware of my army infantry background told me I could carry my 45 on the job, and IF the "shoot" was good they'd back me. That was 1986. Think it's gotten any easier?
    Dont take offense as I wasn't calling YOU a psycho or a child molester, and I used to live in Florida as well. It's just a statistical truth, Last year in Florida there were 125,825 "Violent Crimes" vs Kentucky were I'm living now had 11,134 or roughly 1/10th, 889 Murders in FL vs 190 in KY, Larger metropolitan areas tend to attract more criminals so dont get offended by statements that weren't personally directed at you. Also while living in FL I had a carjack attempted on me, and I have a 6 inch scar on my thigh from a knife where I got jumped coming out of a club one night so I'm not shooting off the hip IMO. Also I never said that they were all scummy, uneducated, non hygenic types either. In either case there were no LEO to protect me and this was before they past the newer gun laws. My point is that I'll expect the unexpected, but why would I put myself in a position like that. If this was one of these stories of someone getting killed then dont tell me that there wouldnt be plenty of people saying "I wouldn't have let myself be in that scenario in the first place". I'm not altering your scenario, I'm avioding it. That way in your scenario exactly as you have it stated, I wouldnt have to take the shot cause there's not going to be a psycho holding a pistol to my wifes head, while were alone, in the middle of nowhere, with the kids out playing with the dog. Now if you alter your own scenario and say that we are X-mas shopping, at the movies, or whatever then you've changed the total dynamic of the whole thing yourself as there will more than likely be other people around in those public places, then your going to have everyone there grabbing there cell phones and dialing 911, and recording the action to post later on You Tube. Screaming, yelling, and possibly someone else drawing a firearm on the psycho and elevating the situation to an even higher level. My ONLY point was that you should know not to let yourself get into situations like that. It could happen I'll agree, but dont help it happen by allowing yourself to be in those situations.

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    Member Array netmechanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtD View Post
    I was born and raised in good ole FL too. 4th generation living here, 3rd generation born here. I don't apreciate it either, but I don't let it offend me Ex, because you and I both know that most of the perverts, wackos, and criminals here were imported from other places.
    And thank you sgtD, I also never said that Florida is a breeding ground for them I said it was a favorite retreat along with L.A. and other large populations. They come from all over and I'm sure a couple of them are from here in KY. I was born in Florida, Moved to KY, and have lived all over the country. It wasnt a pesonal attack against anyones State, City, or County. It's just the truth. It wasnt directed at anyone so dont take it that way.

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    netmechanic, I know you weren't calling ME a child molester, etc. I'm offended by your characterization of MY state. I was briefly stationed at Fort Knox. Great place but Louisville is less than paradise. You simply cannot compare crime stats for the two states. It's like apples and oranges.

    BTW, formatting is our friend. Try and break your statements up into shorter paragraphs please, for these older eyes.

    Also, if your intention is to simply AVOID my scenario...then why not just avoid the thread instead of nitpicking us to pieces?

    We KNOW...we ALL know that it's always better to avoid these things. Sometimes you cannot. I want folks to think about it...because sure as shooting, if you think you can avoid it by simply going other places...it'll happen to YOU.

    Dealing with the questions posed in advance and committing to a course of action is a vital first step to survival as I'm sure everyone here will agree.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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