CA. Kidnapper & Killer Spotted With Victim: What Would YOU Do?

CA. Kidnapper & Killer Spotted With Victim: What Would YOU Do?

This is a discussion on CA. Kidnapper & Killer Spotted With Victim: What Would YOU Do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a post about the killer who murdered a mother and son in CA within a burning house, and kidnapped the sister; I'm sure ...

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Thread: CA. Kidnapper & Killer Spotted With Victim: What Would YOU Do?

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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    CA. Kidnapper & Killer Spotted With Victim: What Would YOU Do?

    This is a post about the killer who murdered a mother and son in CA within a burning house, and kidnapped the sister; I'm sure you know Police found his car and a couple on horseback saw the Klller and Victim earlier "today", this in Idaho wilderness. Obviously you are not all police nor am I using an ongoing tragedy for a "mental training exercise". But take this question either way: I believe FBI use civilian gov. advisers at times. So, if that were your job, what conceivable advice could you give of how to capture/kill the kidnapper while saving the victim? Alternately for me and other confused members: most of you are very good analyzers of crisis situations. I'm not bad myself but the same question is a locked safe for me and maybe others here: how in the name of god will authorities approach this guy as no doubt will be happening soon in light of the following:

    - Any kidnapper is lethally dangerous as they have a victim close by but this guy seems triple the danger. The man himself has a years-long reception by those who closely know him as stellar, almost a family member, the kids grew from babies with him, he'd always help everyone out etc. Yet, WHAM!, he becomes a killer and kidnapper overnight. He's either out for ransom, which he isn't - or crazy. The latter of course. But he's not crazy as the type who just explodes one day with an irrational catastrophe. He has what I call a sociopath’s insanity: he does not lose rationality, and it is an acute one. The police believe the murders were very carefully planned out and executed. Crazy people cause horrible damage but once it's over can be caught easily. They can't think straight. Not so this guy, he's intact rationally and in my opinion much more dangerous because of that.

    -Next the victim: witnesses today said she did not appear to be held against her will. If they're right: Much better she was. She could well be suffering from what kidnappers try to do: cause an "inversion" in the victim, who now becomes "the friend", the "great love", the "dear lover-daughter", "the true believer" of the perp. She may have been manipulated after, or even before, she was snatched. Is this is her fault? Absolutely not! She would be the victim of the typical "Uncle-Abuser", the "Older Cousin” manipulator, working for years with the uncanny finesse these Abusers have to create Romantic Dreams in the victim, or at the beginning of sexual awareness, like this victim, weave a web of suggestions, hints, out of the seeming safety of the trusted adult. This is VERY dangerous: the poor girl could only be hypnotized into this state if she did not know her "great Lover" was also the killer of her mother and little child-brother. But she could find out from a fluke, a radio station scanned for 5 seconds, if they go to a town with a glance at a paper, anything. At that moment her abuser-created world will collapse - and the killer will instantly know it. This may be the moment of her death.

    Last and most dangerous: Police believe he may have explosives. They may be in his bags. IF he plans so carefully he may know what trigger he will use to explode both the girl and himself in some crazy conflagration to become eternal soul-mates. The trigger might be the mere sight of police. If I've thought of this the authorities have too, likely long before. How do the authorities even show themselves, or prevent being seen when they must be there in mass numbers - and could "bump into the killer anytime? If they are seen, that may be IT, yet they have to look with great energy for they must find him but quick.


    So, from whatever standpoint you wish, how do you take this guy and not kill the girl in the process?


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    Moved to 'Scenarios' sub-forum.
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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    What transpires between the girl and kidnapper before anyone finds them is beyond the ability of anyone to effect.

    I personally would have a sniper shadowing the search forces. Of by himself hes less likely to be noticed and may actually have the kidnapper driven to him by the searchers. On contact the sniper would be under orders to work himself into the best position possible unseen and take out the kidnapper without warning. Far from perfect I know and risky. But if possible to deploy that way maybe the least risky to the victim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    What transpires between the girl and kidnapper before anyone finds them is beyond the ability of anyone to effect.

    I personally would have a sniper shadowing the search forces. Of by himself hes less likely to be noticed and may actually have the kidnapper driven to him by the searchers. On contact the sniper would be under orders to work himself into the best position possible unseen and take out the kidnapper without warning. Far from perfect I know and risky. But if possible to deploy that way maybe the least risky to the victim.
    I’m in this camp, he must be taken out quickly and with no suspicion that he is a target.
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    OK as a random guy walking around while minding my own business, and I run into the kidnapper and victim, I'd probably feign ignorance and call the police. Giving detailed discription, mode and direction of travel, and any other information asked by the dispatcher. My personality is such that I would really try to keep them under observation. It would probably take a minimum of three minutes for the police to react. Maybe as long as 15 minutes. I'd try to keep them under observation.

    As a police commander I'd allow the civilian making the observations to continue. If that civilian were armed would make it a lot easier for me to set up on the situation. This would allow us (the police) to properly set up on the situation. IN a case like this I wouldnt want a marked radio car pulling up and a couple of uniformed officers confronting the situation. This could trigger a disaster. There is a police technique called blending. It requires officers being dressed in normal everyday clothing. NOT detectives in business attire. So with the help of the armed citizen (who by the nature of people would have already blended) I'd comfortably filter in plain clothed officers, one relieving the citizen. As other said I'd deploy a sniper if possible. The blended officers could swarm the perp, or the sniper could put him down, or a blended officer could put him down. The trick is to have the proper resources in place and have real options that would best settle the situation with minimal danger to everyone.

    This thread could lead to a conversation about civilian/police cooperation, and police tactics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    OK as a random guy walking around while minding my own business, and I run into the kidnapper and victim, I'd probably feign ignorance and call the police. Giving detailed discription, mode and direction of travel, and any other information asked by the dispatcher. My personality is such that I would really try to keep them under observation. It would probably take a minimum of three minutes for the police to react. Maybe as long as 15 minutes. I'd try to keep them under observation.

    As a police commander I'd allow the civilian making the observations to continue. If that civilian were armed would make it a lot easier for me to set up on the situation. This would allow us (the police) to properly set up on the situation. IN a case like this I wouldnt want a marked radio car pulling up and a couple of uniformed officers confronting the situation. This could trigger a disaster. There is a police technique called blending. It requires officers being dressed in normal everyday clothing. NOT detectives in business attire. So with the help of the armed citizen (who by the nature of people would have already blended) I'd comfortably filter in plain clothed officers, one relieving the citizen. As other said I'd deploy a sniper if possible. The blended officers could swarm the perp, or the sniper could put him down, or a blended officer could put him down. The trick is to have the proper resources in place and have real options that would best settle the situation with minimal danger to everyone.

    This thread could lead to a conversation about civilian/police cooperation, and police tactics.
    Very, very inventive but your plan for a civilian helper is a no-go I think. All Amber-Alerts on this guy have stressed not to become involved but just contact the police. One reason is the usual legal one: an Agency allowing a civilian to participate in a police action is a sitting duck for a successful lawsuits if something happens to the civilian - for they are legally responsible for allowing an untrained and untested person off the street to become " A Cop For The Day" - so too would the girl's family have a legal lockdown on a suit against the agency and the civilian should the girl, due to anything at all the civilian did or influenced, become badly injured or dead. For this guy, there was also a mysterious statement by the Police after they had searched his belongings once the fire was out. They said that due to what they had seen or found, they now considered all bets off as to what he is capable of. That sounds REAL BAD - and they really wouldn't allow a civilian to get involved in whatever added weird danger there is on top of all the others. These people need to be real Pros now, I bet more than anytime in their career. They need to be inventive, careful but quick!, and consider all angles and contingencies throughout. I tell you who they could use but it's impossible, a small unit of Navy Seals, this is right up their alley: invisible, remarkable sharpshooters and expert in the use of all sorts of secret devices - excellent on organization that allows both precisely-timed group action but also is plastic enough to allow one or two Seals to work independently. An impossible dream....

    The second problem any police agency would have a far as invisibility by slipping into the normal population: great idea but there is no normal population; they are in the wilds of Idaho, but a fluke the couple on horseback happened to spot them. That's another reason for Police having grave difficulty in not being noticed: they will likely be the only humans around and there will be a regiment of them.

    I'm afraid we are approaching the real crisis point and circumstances combine to make this event's end anyone's call. That poor girl.....and her dead mother and little brother whom she can't know of yet...... PRAY for her, she desperately needs it!
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    I would call the police without raising his suspicion, report the facts, and ask them what they want me to do - keep following, break off, etc.

    I would not engage. My career arc has been lawn mower, dishwasher, grocery bag boy, engineer, and now lawyer. The training for each job did not cover single handed apprehension/take down of a violent killer with a Stockholm syndrome hostage in tow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    OK as a random guy walking around while minding my own business, and I run into the kidnapper and victim, I'd probably feign ignorance and call the police. Giving detailed discription, mode and direction of travel, and any other information asked by the dispatcher. My personality is such that I would really try to keep them under observation. It would probably take a minimum of three minutes for the police to react. Maybe as long as 15 minutes. I'd try to keep them under observation.

    As a police commander I'd allow the civilian making the observations to continue. If that civilian were armed would make it a lot easier for me to set up on the situation. This would allow us (the police) to properly set up on the situation. IN a case like this I wouldnt want a marked radio car pulling up and a couple of uniformed officers confronting the situation. This could trigger a disaster. There is a police technique called blending. It requires officers being dressed in normal everyday clothing. NOT detectives in business attire. So with the help of the armed citizen (who by the nature of people would have already blended) I'd comfortably filter in plain clothed officers, one relieving the citizen. As other said I'd deploy a sniper if possible. The blended officers could swarm the perp, or the sniper could put him down, or a blended officer could put him down. The trick is to have the proper resources in place and have real options that would best settle the situation with minimal danger to everyone.

    This thread could lead to a conversation about civilian/police cooperation, and police tactics.


    ^^^^^^I'm in this camp here^^^^^^^^^^^^


    Check this video out of a "Chinese policewoman"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg1Vea3gWyw
    (she was probably trained extensively) nonchalantly shooting a kidnaper.
    The dope never knew what hit him.
    Who's to say the "agent" we'll call them, doesn't just walk right up to the guy as he's standing in line at Wendy's or the like and take him out.
    Secret Spuk likes this.
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    Kobayashi Maru

    Ohh, explosives too? You have yourself a Kobayashi Maru, my friend.
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    -PEF, a Framer with a Steelie...
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    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    I would call the police without raising his suspicion, report the facts, and ask them what they want me to do - keep following, break off, etc.

    I would not engage. My career arc has been lawn mower, dishwasher, grocery bag boy, engineer, and now lawyer. The training for each job did not cover single handed apprehension/take down of a violent killer with a Stockholm syndrome hostage in tow.
    Right on!

    (By the way, TO ALL: I'M the only person who mentioned the Stockholm Syndrome, it's a hunch, based on some logic but we know zero about that along with my own ignorance of her state now, just to keep this quite clear.)

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    PS: I am in complete agreement with everyone who mentioned High-Powered-Marksman-Rifle, the shots taken at the Perp in his ignorance of any police presence. To the charge some would have that that "WAS NOT FAIR! He deserves a chance to NEGOTIATE!", my reply would "W..H.. A..T!?"
    This guy is long past the negotiating stage because he never had one. He can murder without blinking a woman and a child who believed he was a life-long friend - he is an utter, insane (not legally though!) sociopath who cares not a whit for human beings - and a young girl's life now hangs in the balance. Negotiate my behind!

    A caveat from me about the sniper-shot, there would have to be a120% certainty THIS WAS THE PERP and THIS THE VICTIM - probably requiring sophisticated magnification equipment. But on this, even a 1% doubt - it's off.

    I guess I would set up discreet aerial searching, VERY discreet and publish if possible cooperation from the press, false stories of where police were searching. I would send out a very thin number of expert marksman, some coupled with women, in civilian clothes if spotted, and spread them far apart as a "point-line". Hopefully, one or two would discover the Perp, radio in a halt for the "troops" following behind, authenticate identity, get supervisor's permission - and do it. Send the whole contingent of LEOs and FEDs crashing thru the forest first, they'll be well well-known but fast and an explosion may be the next sound or the scream of a girl's death and the sound of a self-inflicted shot and suicide of the perp.

    (Thermal imaging from a plane would be a great way to spot them, but I don't know if that is possible in secrecy and from anything but a low altitude - and that would be a dead give-away for the perp.)
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    MY job is to be a good witness. I am not a cop and these people are not my family. I did not get a CCW to be a hero.
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    I pray with all my might that this situation is concluded with no further loss of innocent life. Not so concerned for what happens to the mutt who caused it. It's an all round difficult situation. A mostly tragic situation.

    In a case of a kidnapping there is established protocol. Not every police agency/officer is well aquainted with them. Certainly civilian population is unfamiliar with them. This is why the FBI is reluctant to employ local law enforcement in these operations. And why law enforcement in general is reluctant to actively involve non sworn civilians. One thing every agent, officer, detective, and police comander knows is... WE have to play the hand thats dealt us. If that hand includes a civilian providing real time intelligence, only a fool would turn it down.
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    I'm in concurrence with Ghost1958. No trying to talk him down. No negotiating with him. As soon as he is located a marksman needs to make an immediate head shot.
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    I was just thinking about something similar to this. Recently, I watched "The Call" where a kidnapper put a girl in his trunk and drove down the freeway. She managed to knock the tail light out and stick her hand out. A driver saw this and called 911. I would've done the same. Then, the kidnapper got off at an exit, and the person following just kept on driving. No way would I not follow. I'm all about not getting involved, but sometimes you just have to.
    Secret Spuk and tdave like this.
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