How it often happens. When to draw

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Thread: How it often happens. When to draw

  1. #1
    Member Array Hamltnblue's Avatar
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    How it often happens. When to draw

    You're in a mall parking lot heading to the car when you notice a group of "youths" slowly surrounding you after passing the point of no return from the building.
    Your instincts tell you that you are being herded but no threat is made.
    As you get closer to the car the noose tightens and by the time you make it you are surrounded. At the door of the car one finally confronts you and asks you for a couple of dollars.
    You're about to be mugged.

    I know there's no answer that would be legal since they've done nothing wrong until they have you in a position that even with a weapon you can't respond.
    I've always thought the best thing to do is unholster the weapon or place your hand on it in plain sight, avoiding eye contact but sending a message before they get too close. Technically illegal but probably the best way to defuse the situation.

    Thoughts?

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    I'd have had my 2" .38 in my hand when I first noticed the "youts".

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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    ...can you prove in PA law the statements you make here?

    "...I know there's no answer that would be legal since they've done nothing wrong until they have you in a position that even with a weapon you can't respond.
    I've always thought the best thing to do is unholster the weapon or place your hand on it in plain sight, avoiding eye contact but sending a message before they get too close. Technically illegal but probably the best way to defuse the situation."


    ...doing the research to prove or disprove these opinions takes time, but knowing what the laws of your state actually say and allow/forbid you to do will stand you in good stead should you ever BE in this situation...and help you explain your actions to LE once it's over...it will be a great confidence booster...
    ...you may or may not get accurate information specific to your state laws here...but if you read it in the law yourself...you'll know...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamltnblue View Post
    You're in a mall parking lot heading to the car when you notice a group of "youths" slowly surrounding you after passing the point of no return from the building.
    Your instincts tell you that you are being herded but no threat is made.
    As you get closer to the car the noose tightens and by the time you make it you are surrounded. At the door of the car one finally confronts you and asks you for a couple of dollars.
    You're about to be mugged.

    I know there's no answer that would be legal since they've done nothing wrong until they have you in a position that even with a weapon you can't respond.
    I've always thought the best thing to do is unholster the weapon or place your hand on it in plain sight, avoiding eye contact but sending a message before they get too close. Technically illegal but probably the best way to defuse the situation.

    Thoughts?
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    SS we had the same thought on the "youts"

    To the OP. As is always the case you will be reacting to the threat the other guy presents so in this case I would attempt to redirect their location/position in my favor.

    Would I draw? Depends on what my gut told me. I would have my hand on my firearm and give a verbal challenge or simply ask intentions or if they think this is the best choice at the moment.

    There is not a perfect answer to the scenario all depends on your skill level and mindset at that time.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Great thing about pocket carry. Can have your hand on the gun the whole time and still be discrete. Hit the panic button on your key fob well before you get there. Or pull your gun and say "back off!"
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    Ex Member Array IndianaSig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamltnblue View Post
    You're in a mall parking lot heading to the car when you notice a group of "youths" slowly surrounding you after passing the point of no return from the building.
    Your instincts tell you that you are being herded but no threat is made.
    As you get closer to the car........
    There's no good way to demonstrate it on an Internet forum but, at the point I stopped your description of events above, you had already screwed up. The moment you "noticed....slowly surrounding you" was the time to quit moving towards your car (or any other solid barrier) that could eliminate one direction of escape and also a solid object against which you could be pinned. In your hypothetical, the best thing you could have done was to stay in the middle of the driveway, as far from any car or other solid object as possible, where you would be noticeable and conspicuous as possible, turned around, and walked towards the building. Nearly any mall these days has cameras aimed at the parking lot, usually mounted on the top of mall buildings. The closer you get to them, the easier it's going to be for you, and the kids, to be seen if you need good video someday to help you in court. The key then would be to keep walking. In Indiana, if any of the kids did anything that prevented you from moving forward, you would then have sufficient cause to believe you were in imminent danger of great bodily harm and you could draw and fire your weapon. No weapon would have to be produced by the kids for you to be covered by our codified law. However, I would really want that video......
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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaSig View Post
    There's no good way to demonstrate it on an Internet forum but, at the point I stopped your description of events above, you had already screwed up. The moment you "noticed....slowly surrounding you" was the time to quit moving towards your car (or any other solid barrier) that could eliminate one direction of escape and also a solid object against which you could be pinned. In your hypothetical, the best thing you could have done was to stay in the middle of the driveway, as far from any car or other solid object as possible, where you would be noticeable and conspicuous as possible, turned around, and walked towards the building. Nearly any mall these days has cameras aimed at the parking lot, usually mounted on the top of mall buildings. The closer you get to them, the easier it's going to be for you, and the kids, to be seen if you need good video someday to help you in court. The key then would be to keep walking. In Indiana, if any of the kids did anything that prevented you from moving forward, you would then have sufficient cause to believe you were in imminent danger of great bodily harm and you could draw and fire your weapon. No weapon would have to be produced by the kids for you to be covered by our codified law. However, I would really want that video......
    While that is probably all LEGALLY correct, I would wager that drawing on and firing at teens that had produced no weapons and made no verbal threats wouldn't work out well in the criminal justice system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaSig View Post
    There's no good way to demonstrate it on an Internet forum but, at the point I stopped your description of events above, you had already screwed up. The moment you "noticed....slowly surrounding you" was the time to quit moving towards your car (or any other solid barrier) that could eliminate one direction of escape and also a solid object against which you could be pinned. ....
    Like this part. If I get a tingling feeling, I'm going to change course. I won't "continue what I'm doing" out of the "concern" I might appear paranoid.... Stop, turn, head back...what happens next is up to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad426 View Post
    While that is probably all LEGALLY correct, I would wager that drawing on and firing at teens that had produced no weapons and made no verbal threats wouldn't work out well in the criminal justice system.
    Yes, I tend to agree with this. I would not draw if they tried to box me, would take more than that...
    -PEF, a Framer with a Steelie...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

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    In answer to your scenario. SA. Be aware of your surroundings and don't get into that sit. Return to the mall. If that isn't possible I would turn and confront the nearest one and ask what he needed. My hand would be on my weapon. Call 911 at the first sign of trouble and stay on the phone so there will be a record of what was said by whom. Keep a few bucks in a pocket you can throw down. 10 or 20 bucks is cheap compared to what legal fees would cost if you have to shoot someone. I would not be beaten, I would use any means at my disposal to defend myself.
    I shoot with a pistol and a Canon. We must all hang together amigos, or we will all hang separately. NRA life member.

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    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    Like your post. Tactical Response teaches you to yell "NO THANK YOU!".

    The point being you are GOING to yell something at crunch time, and thats much better than die XXXX die! And its also non offensive. It doesnt cause a gang leader, or member to lose face.

    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Great thing about pocket carry. Can have your hand on the gun the whole time and still be discrete. Hit the panic button on your key fob well before you get there. Or pull your gun and say "back off!"

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    Member Array Hamltnblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snub44 View Post
    ...can you prove in PA law the statements you make here?

    "...I know there's no answer that would be legal since they've done nothing wrong until they have you in a position that even with a weapon you can't respond.
    I've always thought the best thing to do is unholster the weapon or place your hand on it in plain sight, avoiding eye contact but sending a message before they get too close. Technically illegal but probably the best way to defuse the situation."


    ...doing the research to prove or disprove these opinions takes time, but knowing what the laws of your state actually say and allow/forbid you to do will stand you in good stead should you ever BE in this situation...and help you explain your actions to LE once it's over...it will be a great confidence booster...
    ...you may or may not get accurate information specific to your state laws here...but if you read it in the law yourself...you'll know...
    I can only go by what an instructor told me when taking a class (not required). He noted that placing a hand on a weapon is a threatening action and if reported an get you in cuffs.

    As to backing out when sensing trouble it's not always an option.
    Having lived in a City for a decade I learned the hard way that the criminals know what they are doing. (was robbed at gunpoint in a full bar, and another time at knife point while with 2 others).Both times I was unarmed. After that I vowed never to be in that situation again. When it happens you are obviously the last to know. By the time you feel threatened you're already in trouble. I think I'd probably handle my snubbie and re-position it in plain view. Most cases it would be enough to make them back off. There is the possibility that they could shout "gun" and make a scene.

    This type of scenario happens every day in Cities.

  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array SCXDm9's Avatar
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    Assuming in the situation as presented... I would turn to the one nearest the direction I feel is my best chance at escape, pick up the pace, moving with purpose and with strong voice ask "can I help you!" Hopefully by now the dynamic has change and I'm on offence, another step or 2 I passing my target and I'm turning to see how they have reacted...and hopefully continuing on with my great day o

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    VIP Member Array Snub44's Avatar
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    "...I can only go by what an instructor told me when taking a class (not required)."

    ...that's not accurate...you can CHOOSE to only go by what an instructor told you when taking a class...OR you can choose to hit the books and find out for yourself...one is easy, one is smart...

    QUOTE=Hamltnblue;2872993]I can only go by what an instructor told me when taking a class (not required). He noted that placing a hand on a weapon is a threatening action and if reported an get you in cuffs.

    As to backing out when sensing trouble it's not always an option.
    Having lived in a City for a decade I learned the hard way that the criminals know what they are doing. (was robbed at gunpoint in a full bar, and another time at knife point while with 2 others).Both times I was unarmed. After that I vowed never to be in that situation again. When it happens you are obviously the last to know. By the time you feel threatened you're already in trouble. I think I'd probably handle my snubbie and re-position it in plain view. Most cases it would be enough to make them back off. There is the possibility that they could shout "gun" and make a scene.

    This type of scenario happens every day in Cities.[/QUOTE]

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array NickBurkhardt's Avatar
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    I, and several other students, had the same question for our CHL instructor. I asked if switching between CC and OC would be considered "brandishing". He said no not in the free states where open carry is legal (Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Utah, etc.), but he would wait until you are sure of a threat then grip your weapon in its holster with your strong hand, undo any retention, hold out your other hand and firmly say "Stop. I have a gun. Do not come any closer."

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