A scenario from Sheepdog tip of the day

A scenario from Sheepdog tip of the day

This is a discussion on A scenario from Sheepdog tip of the day within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here is a scenario from Sheepdog tip of the day (Lt. Col. Dave Grossman) Question in a active shooter situation, Could you shoot someone in ...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 46
Like Tree94Likes

Thread: A scenario from Sheepdog tip of the day

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,477

    A scenario from Sheepdog tip of the day

    Here is a scenario from Sheepdog tip of the day (Lt. Col. Dave Grossman) Question in a active shooter situation, Could you shoot someone in the back?


    Consider a paint bullet scenario that was given to sworn, veteran
    police officers in Nebraska. In the scenario, they were told that they had
    received an "officer needs help call," with shots fired. When they got to the
    scene, they would find the officer down with the suspect pointing a gun at
    the officer's head. "I'm going to kill him," the suspect says. "I'm going to
    kill him." The tricky part of this scenario was that the suspect had his back
    turned to the officer.
    Sheepdog Tip of the Day, During Combat tip 58


    If you read the rest of the story most LEO could not carry through with the shot.

    Just food for thought
    Snub44 likes this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes


  2. #2
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    11,074
    We read about the aversion many have to shooting an assailant in the back right here all the time. Personally, I believe it is something that has been ingrained from a very early age. In the westerns of my youth, the epitome of psycopathic evil and cowardice was the man who would shoot another in the back.
    OD*, lordofwyr, Snub44 and 3 others like this.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Mid-Atlantic
    Posts
    1,514
    What you do is move. Seek a different angle and maybe some cover. If the guy actually shoots, you are not in danger of being shot standing there out in the open. After moving you are no longer at his back and can see better what he's doing. Does he actually have a firearm? Is the downed officer still alive?

    The problem is not actually fear of shooting someone in the back. It's shooting someone in cold blood and shooting in the back is not the target. You shoot for the medulla to cause all motor action to stop. You might want to move at an angle to cover and actually be closer.
    NONAME762 likes this.

  4. #4
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    11,074
    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    What you do is move. Seek a different angle and maybe some cover. If the guy actually shoots, you are not in danger of being shot standing there out in the open. After moving you are no longer at his back and can see better what he's doing. Does he actually have a firearm? Is the downed officer still alive?

    The problem is not actually fear of shooting someone in the back. It's shooting someone in cold blood and shooting in the back is not the target. You shoot for the medulla to cause all motor action to stop. You might want to move at an angle to cover and actually be closer.
    I'm taking the shot as soon as it presents itself.
    Badey, mkh, jeephipwr and 9 others like this.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  5. #5
    VIP Member
    Array PEF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,894
    If I were presented with that situation, I believe I would take the shot. Putting my self in the shoes of the victim, I would be justified in using deadly force.

    That's what I believe. That's probably what most of the officers believed as well...
    BurgerBoy, Snub44, Aceoky and 1 others like this.
    -PEF, a Framer with a Steelie...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

  6. #6
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    11,074
    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    If I were presented with that situation, I believe I would take the shot. Putting my self in the shoes of the victim, I would be justified in using deadly force.

    That's what I believe. That's probably what most of the officers believed as well...
    I've had that scenario put on me in an F-on-F. I immediately took the shot. The action vs. reaction drills made a deep, permanent impression on me.
    Snub44, chandler4228 and Aceoky like this.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  7. #7
    VIP Member
    Array PEF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,894
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I've had that scenario put on me in an F-on-F. I immediately took the shot. The action vs. reaction drills made a deep, permanent impression on me.
    I thought that might be the case; I recall you've had F-on-F training. The qualifier for me is that I have not. I believe that I would do it, but I have never even attempted such a drill. I do have concerns about "freezing" in certain situations.

    I wonder if the police that took part in the drill had such training beforehand.
    Last edited by PEF; September 7th, 2013 at 08:34 AM. Reason: + beforehand
    -PEF, a Framer with a Steelie...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

  8. #8
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    11,074
    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    I thought that might be the case; I recall you've had F-on-F training. The qualifier for me is that I have not. I believe that I would do it, but I have never even attempted such a drill. I do have concerns about "freezing" in certain situations.

    I wonder if the police that took part in the drill had such training beforehand.
    In the one real lethal force confrontation I have been through, the "beforehand" part quite possibly saved a man's life.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    3,130
    I'm not sure how this is tricky at all... Take the shot. There is imminent danger to the already-wounded officer. The guy has already shown willingness to use lethal force. Why put yourself at further risk by compromising the advantage you have?
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    1,903
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    We read about the aversion many have to shooting an assailant in the back right here all the time. Personally, I believe it is something that has been ingrained from a very early age. In the westerns of my youth, the epitome of psycopathic evil and cowardice was the man who would shoot another in the back.
    The same problem comes up in other scenarios we discuss too. For example, you're in a store and a robber pulls a gun on the clerk. Just because someone isn't facing you, or pointing their weapon AT you doesn't mean that they are not a legitimate deadly threat TO you.

    A couple of nights ago, I was at a lecture given by one of the sheriff's office captains about their gun crime unit. The question about shooting someone in the back came up and whether or not it could still be ruled a justified shoot. He said that they've even had (what I am about to describe) happen to their officers and even caught it on video. Someone is facing you have made the decision to shoot. In the time period it takes for the signals to go from your brain to your finger and for your body to react, the BG can turn around and ends up getting shot in the back. Their actions can be that fast. His point was that just because someone was hit in the back doesn't mean that it wasn't a completely lawful and justified action.

  11. #11
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    11,074
    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    The same problem comes up in other scenarios we discuss too. For example, you're in a store and a robber pulls a gun on the clerk. Just because someone isn't facing you, or pointing their weapon AT you doesn't mean that they are not a legitimate deadly threat TO you.

    A couple of nights ago, I was at a lecture given by one of the sheriff's office captains about their gun crime unit. The question about shooting someone in the back came up and whether or not it could still be ruled a justified shoot. He said that they've even had (what I am about to describe) happen to their officers and even caught it on video. Someone is facing you have made the decision to shoot. In the time period it takes for the signals to go from your brain to your finger and for your body to react, the BG can turn around and ends up getting shot in the back. Their actions can be that fast. His point was that just because someone was hit in the back doesn't mean that it wasn't a completely lawful and justified action.
    A member here did a decent demo awhile ago:
    ACTION vs REACTION Live Fire Video Demo - Stunning Results
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Triangle, NC
    Posts
    610
    The guy has a gun and has verbally made a threat. I am shooting him and I dont care if his back is to me or if he is hanging upside down by his toes. I am going to shoot until I run out of ammo or he is no longer a threat.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    4,103
    Quote Originally Posted by jeephipwr View Post
    The guy has a gun and has verbally made a threat. I am shooting him and I dont care if his back is to me or if he is hanging upside down by his toes. I am going to shoot until I run out of ammo or he is no longer a threat.
    Well now you're talking about shooting a vampire and that's a waste of time and ammo.
    PEF, Darrow75, Aceoky and 2 others like this.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
    Clint Eastwood

  14. #14
    Member Array lordofwyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    306
    We had a similar scenario in at FATS (Fire Arms Training Simulator) where I took long enough to get lined up for a head shot. In that extra second I took to get on target with the smaller head shot than the chest/back, as I shot him, he shot the victim.

    The trainer asked why I hesitated and I said that I didn't hesitate for anything except to be sure I put the guy down with a head shot so he would most likely not be able to pull the trigger. The answer he gave was a simple, "And you gave him time to shoot the victim, didn't you?"

    Answer was a resounding, "Yep."

    The idea is to go ahead and start sending lead into the BG's body and he will most likely either miss his shot or go down without shooting his gun, but taking the time to line up a head shot or moving only gives him time to kill.

    The trainer said, "You did alright anyway, because you took the shot and it was pretty much a no win scenario anyway from the time constraints, but too many cops think they have to give a bad guy a fair chance from in front, or a warning shout to drop the weapon. He had already proven he would kill by shooting a cop. In that scenario, you owe the bad guy nothing and the victim everything. Take the shot you are given and take it as fast as you can accurately shoot."

    And I agree with that statement completely.
    Fortune Favors the Bold!

  15. #15
    VIP Member
    Array archer51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    21,864
    I consider this in the same scenario as firing on a woman or a child. If they are armed, aggressive, you do what needs to be done. Take the shot and pray that their victim has not already been killed.
    Snub44, Aceoky and TVJ like this.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

    USAF Retired
    NRA Life Member

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

gun training classes with scenerios and paint tip bullets

Click on a term to search for related topics.