Home for the Holidays

This is a discussion on Home for the Holidays within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This may have an easy answer but... What if you are going back home for the holidays, are CCW and stop into an old gas ...

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Thread: Home for the Holidays

  1. #1
    Member Array Hekkenschutze's Avatar
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    Home for the Holidays

    This may have an easy answer but...
    What if you are going back home for the holidays, are CCW and stop into an old gas station you used to go to all the time when you lived there. When you are inside, looking at sodas and about to walk back to the counter to pay (and talk to the owners for a bit, who you know really well) and then pops in a guy with a gun pointed at the owners at the register. The BG doesn't see you and you could very well just be a good witness or just as well hide behind the racks of food, snacks and autosupplies. The people getting robbed are old friends, the BG threatens to kill them and you've got a CCW that could potentially save their lives and them from getting robbed.

    What would you do?

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  3. #2
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    Array SIXTO's Avatar
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    I'd decide real quick whether I'm saving their lives or preventing them from getting robbed.
    Last edited by SIXTO; December 2nd, 2006 at 08:00 PM.

  4. #3
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    In think that varies heavily on the state your in and whether or not a shooting in self-defense can be made for someone else.

    I think I would stay someplace I can view the action and stay a little hidden. Gun is out and ready to go, though. I would take the shot if they try and jump the counter.
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    Member Array produman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    In think that varies heavily on the state your in and whether or not a shooting in self-defense can be made for someone else.

    I think I would stay someplace I can view the action and stay a little hidden. Gun is out and ready to go, though. I would take the shot if they try and jump the counter.
    I agree. You really have to acess what kind of movements the BG's are exhibiting. I would take a shot only if they were to try to get over the counter.
    "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."
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  6. #5
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    same as others have posted. until you are there and viewing the robbery, it is foolish to assume you would do X vs. Y
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  7. #6
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    Watch And Wait...

    Call 911...whisper the holdup info...briefly...tell the operator to stay on the line and to plug her ears...

    Guy leaves...be a good witness...shots fired...he's toast!

    OMO

    ret
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  8. #7
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Call 911...whisper the holdup info...briefly...tell the operator to stay on the line and to plug her ears...

    Guy leaves...be a good witness...shots fired...he's toast!

    OMO

    ret
    And hope that... what, the BG's first shot doesn't kill an innocent?

    Personally, from civilian OR LEO perspective: standing by and watching an innocent person get killed? Not a chance in hell. The dirtbag comes in, announces a robbery, displays a gun, AND verbally threatens to kill someone? I will draw and fire and continue firing until the threat is no longer.

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  9. #8
    Member Array falkon's Avatar
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    Just as soon as the BG said he was going to kill and I saw his gun out. I would have to shoot him! I have the right to use deadly force to come to the aid of someone else that has the right to use deadly force. I would also believe that his threat to kill was extended to me as well. I was in fear for my life as well as the life of everyone in the store.
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    Senior Member Array jofrdo's Avatar
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    There's no way I'm making a whispered phone call to 911 while an armed BG is in the store with me! I have heard the store owners being threatened with death, and BG's got a gun pointed at them. That's all I need to know; I'm getting into this fight, even if the store owners are strangers to me. I'd move to a postion of cover, where I can shoot without threatening them with missed shots or overpenetrating shots, check around for BG's friends, then fire until BG's no longer in the fight. When he lowers his gun is when I cease fire.

    Then, cover BG as I kick his gun out of reach, call 911 and report the armed robbery and shooting. I would keep covering the BG and watching for BG's friends until police arrive, then holster my gun as they drive up; they'll probably confiscate it in a few minutes.

    My report to the police is "My name is .... I felt the lives of Mr. and Mrs. Smith, and my own, were threatened so I fired in self defense until the threat was over. I want to cooperate with your investigation but will wait until after consulting an attorney before giving a full statement.

  11. #10
    Member Array bones's Avatar
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    I will draw, take aim, fire and stop the threat to my friends. Then I'll use my handy cell phone to call the cavalry.
    "There is no such thing as too much ammo. Unless you're swimming!"

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array Macattack's Avatar
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    I'd have to shoot too. I'm not going to wait until he decides to kill the clerk. If he threatens to kill a casheir that means he will have no problem killing me too, especially if he looks around and sees or hears me trying to call the cops.
    Get a good line of fire and make those shots count and fast. Keep an eye on the windows and door for his driver(who could see you on a phone or with your gun out and blast you through the window)

    Also not a good idea to yell "freeze!! put the gun down and your hands on your head." Because now the ball is in his court.
    He can decide to shoot the clerk, take him hostage, "turn and burn" in your direction, etc...

    -mac
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    Member Array PgSqlQuery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Only Glock View Post
    And hope that... what, the BG's first shot doesn't kill an innocent?

    Personally, from civilian OR LEO perspective: standing by and watching an innocent person get killed? Not a chance in hell. The dirtbag comes in, announces a robbery, displays a gun, AND verbally threatens to kill someone? I will draw and fire and continue firing until the threat is no longer.

    Charlie


    This goes for my state (ohio), and, AFAIK, my state only.

    IF, I can determine clearly, that the BG is threatening the clerk, has the means to carry out said threat, and, that the clerk hasn't escalated the situation, and, I think I have a clear backstop....

    Draw and fire. No question. There is no way in hell, I am going to watch either a stranger, or, an 'old friend' be murdered, in cold blood, if I can help it.

    The BG doesen't have to ACTUALLY KILL SOMEONE here, before I believe his threat. For me, pointing a gun at another human being, and articulating a threat, is enough.
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  14. #13
    Member Array Harold Green's Avatar
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    This is a very difficult choice, and will likely not be cut and dry when the time comes to make it. However, I think anyone who chooses to carry a firearm for personal defense should think long and hard about this and set his own criteria for making this choice beforehand. If you don’t, you’ll have a lot more to process in a very short time while you’re in a very high-stress situation.

    Here are some things to consider:

    If you are in a shall-issue state, every law-abiding adult has made a choice concerning his or her personal defense. Some have chosen to have the means to defend themselves, have obtained a concealed weapon permit, and have armed themselves. Others (most by failing to make an affirmative choice) have chosen to not have the means to defend themselves. Should it be incumbent on you to defend someone who has chosen to not have the means for their own defense?

    If you use your firearm to defend another, you will likely be sued and stand a good chance of being criminally charged – even if you do everything right. This will likely cost you somewhere on the upside of $50,000, just for the legal fees you will have to pay your lawyer. In addition to this, you’ll have the stress of having to deal with the consequences of your actions – probably for years to come. This could end up costing you your home, or even your marriage. How likely is it the person you are defending will step up and say, “let me help you with your legal expenses, and help you put your life back together – here’s a big bag of money?”

    Given this, my personal rule of thumb is, “I’ll use my firearm to defend myself, my immediate family, and my very closest friends.” Everyone else, with very few exceptions, is on their own.

    So in this case I’d have to ask myself, how close a friend is the station operator?

    I know my personal rule of thumb will not be the one a lot of other folks choose to adopt. That’s OK. However, if you carry a firearm for personal defense, you really should consider this kind of situation and develop your own criteria beforehand. If you don’t, you’ll have a lot to process while you’re in a very difficult circumstance.
    "A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does, he needs it very badly!" -- Sir Winston Churchill

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  15. #14
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Good post Harold. Just remeber that some states have laws protecting someone who shoots in self-defense from civil action. Very progressive and I'd like to see more of it (I think we all do), but it is out there.

    --------------------------

    Another possibility to consider:

    What if the guy doesn't immeadiately present a weapon. They just walk in, put their hands on the counter, and tell the clerk they will kill them if they don't hand over the money. Assuming a similar placement before, you can see the front half of his body.

    Do you still take the shot?
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    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Green View Post
    If you are in a shall-issue state, every law-abiding adult has made a choice concerning his or her personal defense. Some have chosen to have the means to defend themselves, have obtained a concealed weapon permit, and have armed themselves. Others (most by failing to make an affirmative choice) have chosen to not have the means to defend themselves. Should it be incumbent on you to defend someone who has chosen to not have the means for their own defense?
    I don't necessarily disagree with you conclusion, but there are plenty of people who don't have this choice. What if the person being threatened is under 21? What about employees who are prohibited from carrying at work? What about someone who has a permit in another state that isn't recognized by the state where this is taking place? What if the person being threatened is actually armed but faces such a tactical disadvantage that they can't employ their weapon?

    Intervening to save a stranger is certainly a situation that is frought with peril (physically and legally), and there are a lot of reasons not to intervene. However, I don't think that we can assume that the victim could be carrying, but chose not to.

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