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Head Shot & Backstop

3K views 42 replies 27 participants last post by  kelcarry 
#1 · (Edited)
I often read advice to "go for the head" if the attacker is not responding to the first several shots. I am curious what your thoughts are on the backstop.

It is my understanding that the head is a much more difficult target than the upper chest due to its movement and small size.

I have concerns about misses; I don't want to injure an innocent party. Part of the "head shot" calculus would seem to require an assessment of your surroundings. If there's a restaurant full of patrons behind the attacker, "going for the head" seems rather risky. Or at least a course of action that will substantially increase the risk of a miss.

What are your thoughts?
 
#2 ·
I'm just going to be honest here and say that in most scenarios I can think of, I wouldn't trust my aim to go for such a small moving target in the heat of the moment (especially in a crowded area) and would much rather go for the larger target (chest) that I am by far more likely to hit.
 
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#6 ·
This assumes I have the luxury of making a better angle. Perhaps getting down on a knee as another posted noted, but then that takes time and leaves you in an even more vulnerable position.
 
#4 ·
We're talking "kill or be killed" here, right?

When someone is attempting to kill you, it's not the time to analyze the background. Misses are always a concern, but if you don't intend to live, you may as well be unarmed. If the background is that much of a concern, don't place yourself in that situation.

While I may practice headshots, it's not what I plan as a first option unless absolutely necessary.
 
#5 ·
"change the angle", just like ricebrnr said. Take a knee, and the angle is up, and likely not to hit anyone else. Not always the thing to do, or course, and maybe an almost never thing to do in a real fight, but its something to remember, for say a crowded mall situation.

Especially if the shooter has his back to you. I bet not too many of us think it very likely that we would encounter a mall shooter. And Im one of them, but a fellow I went to school with for 3 years did.

In the crossroads mall shooting in Omaha. He was very "lucky". He was "only" shot in the arm. Lots of people shot that day, probably many of average size & height. But this guy just happened to be the tallest in our school. He would stand out.
 
#9 ·
Important Stuff....Read This.


"Part of the "head shot" calculus would seem to require an assessment of your surroundings.
"

What works really well when you are punching paper targets on your property or taking a careful aimed shot at game does not work so well when you have a fraction of a second to save your life.

Situational awareness and positioning yourself in an ideal of a location as possible when you are seated in a restaurant would be beneficial but, the answer is "NO" in a self-defensive scenario when you have "little" to almost "no" time to react you will not always know what or who is beyond your intended target/threat.

In a restaurant you certainly will not know who is where behind the wall that is blocking your view of the kitchen - or who is standing directly behind the bathroom door or if the little girl in the apartment above the restaurant is stretched out on the floor doing her homework.

You will NEVER know who is sunbathing in their yard or how many kids are playing behind the fence that lies beyond the parking lot where you are required to defend life and limb.

If your life is truly in deadly peril then you take your shots and you take your chances.

And then you prepare yourself for the possible/likely legal ramifications that will be certain to follow should you injure or kill an innocent individual.

Hopefully you will be skilled enough and practiced enough to be able place projectiles into the deadly threat without sending any off into the ozone.

Which is why I personally realize the fact that I am not a law enforcement officer and I will never interject myself into a shooting scenario in the public arena unless human lives are in immediate danger of being lost.

If that is the case then basically you do what you need to do and hope for a perfect outcome and end result. Keep in mind though that Lady Luck will always play a part in the eventual outcome. That is unavoidable.

Some of it will always be out of your control.

This is SERIOUS STUFF! Every person on this forum needs to give it all real forethought and prior consideration.

If you are just carrying a firearm as a "personal security blanket" and you have it all stored up in your mind that your self-defensive scenario will go according to some predetermined plan then that is incredibly delusional thinking.
Whatever can go wrong will go wrong...usually.

Practice your self-defensive shooting skills.
Avoid any and all altercations if at all possible.
Remember that it is better to walk away than to escalate a situation where things could get instantly ugly and take a horrible bad turn.
Make situational awareness an integral part of your daily life. Pay attention to your surroundings.
Have some sort of Less Than Lethal option also available AKA OC Spray that MAY end some possible potentially violent confrontations before they become chaotic shooting scenarios where bullets could possibly go screaming toward places that you would rather they didn't go.
 
#11 ·
Words of wisdom and forethought :hand2:

I'm not taking a knee in that situation. I want to be on the move always attempting to create a better position and be able to instantly move should I become the object of their bs.
 
#10 ·
That's why I suggested pelvic shot. Firearms is still trained on the bad guy the whole time.

Changing target from COM to pelvic girdle takes no time at all.

Once the baddie is on the ground their head is not moving as much and the ground will be the backstop.

But as you stated, a lot of assumption need to be made with any scenario unless you experience it personally
 
#13 ·
We all need to remember these shootings are all a no win situation and the goal is survival. From a legal standpoint when he hits the ground the threat is over because you are still mobile & the BG is not. If you headshoot a BG lying on the ground armed or not you are in deep doo doo. Move off the X and keep moving.
 
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#17 ·
You need to know well in advance what shots you are capable of making and what shots you are not capable of making with the gun you have on you. If it is a concern for you get training for it. If you are not comfortable with a head shot but know that you can put a full mag dead center of a guys chest you're probably OK.

If you have put 2 into a guys chest- who is a dedicated attacker who is committed to the fight at that point you have his attention and he is going to engage you (if he hasn't already). That is not the time to have an internal debate on what you and your gun are capable of in order to survive.

"Its tough to learn new tactics in the middle of a gunfight"

Practice what you feel you need to be proficient if/when the unimaginable should happen.
 
#25 ·
You need to know well in advance what shots you are capable of making and what shots you are not capable of making with the gun you have on you. If it is a concern for you get training for it. If you are not comfortable with a head shot but know that you can put a full mag dead center of a guys chest you're probably OK.

.
Maybe 10% of the people on this forum are capable of true accuracy in firefight conditions doing that. I know more think they are. But all it takes are the stories and files on gunfights with professionals, and the videos that we've all seen to know that under those conditions, half the time they are clear misses, not even hits, much less COM or headshots.

And yes remember, every bullet has a lawyer attached to it....I just posted that quote somewhere else. You are still going to be held responsible for every bullet. That's why the earlier posts encouraging avoidance if possible are on target.
 
#19 ·
PEF
There were several replies of creating a backstop, changing your angle or your target. All of those would require moving off the X. IMO that is the biggest factor in surviving a SD shooting. When moving one should be moving to... cover or concealment not looking for a better shot or a backstop. Once behind cover either return fire or "shelter in place" with intentions of moving out of the scene. When behind concealment one should continue to move to cover or out of danger.
Personally I would not take a head shot from over 5-7 feet when I know I can make the shot. Statistically yada yada shootings are from from less than ten feet. We all know the line.
 
#20 ·
AZ call and ask your local ADA what he thinks. I did point out that you are mobile and he is not. Thats what the DA will be looking at. You shot a man lying on the ground regardless of the circumstances.
Looking at that scenario a pelvic shot will also cause a great deal of pain and blood loss. Unless BG is methed up or just plain psycho strong his attention will be diverted.

BTW my ADA buddy told me that because of my size I would probably have to exhaust all other means of SD before using my gun. "You are a pretty good sized fella." These are the types of issues that can be brought up in court after the shoot.
Gee isnt it fun discussing how screwed we can be just for defending ourselves?
 
#22 ·
AZ call and ask your local ADA what he thinks. I did point out that you are mobile and he is not. Thats what the DA will be looking at. You shot a man lying on the ground regardless of the circumstances.
Looking at that scenario a pelvic shot will also cause a great deal of pain and blood loss. Unless BG is methed up or just plain psycho strong his attention will be diverted.

BTW my ADA buddy told me that because of my size I would probably have to exhaust all other means of SD before using my gun. "You are a pretty good sized fella." These are the types of issues that can be brought up in court after the shoot.
Gee isnt it fun discussing how screwed we can be just for defending ourselves?
Have to disagree there as well sir. The DA will be looking at whether there continued to be a threat to your person or not. If it's determined the perp was still holding a firearm and attempting to or pointing at you, it makes diddly difference what position they are presently in while still a threat.

You shot a man lying on the ground regardless of the circumstances.

Not so, circumstances dictate the response, not whether they are on the ground or not. If they are still a threat to life or great bodily harm, they get shot until those threats are removed, Period. My head stone will never read, he was killed by a perp on the ground cause he hesitated to shoot based on some DA's wrong opinion.

Deadly SD criteria is"

Means
Motive
Opportunity

Not whether they are on the ground or any other "positioning of the perp"
 
#21 ·
QK and OldVet speak words of wisdom; carefully weigh their advice!

Some folks believe there will be time to consider all of these factors when making a shoot/no shoot decision. Speaking from experience it doesn't happen like that. Not only are you not likely to have the luxury of time to think, even if you did your mind would be experiencing an adrenalin dump, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, time dilation, loss of fine motor skills, increased heart rate and so on. Rational thought processes are inhibited when one experiences the "fight or flite" syndrome.

Believe me, the last thing you will think about if you are about to be killed is whether or not to take a knee to improve your angle. Literally.
 
#23 ·
OK AZ
Lets delve a little deeper into this. I placed a couple of rounds in BG`s pelvis as well as two COM and he hits the ground like a ton of bricks screaming like a little girl,squirming like a worm on a hook & I am standing three steps from the door, has the threat been stopped and can I remove myself from the threat? Would I be justified in shooting him in the head?
I guess my point is it seems like some have decided to arbirtarily shoot him in the head while he`s on the ground.
 
#24 ·
OK AZ
Lets delve a little deeper into this. I placed a couple of rounds in BG`s pelvis as well as two COM and he hits the ground like a ton of bricks screaming like a little girl,squirming like a worm on a hook & I am standing three steps from the door, has the threat been stopped and can I remove myself from the threat? Would I be justified in shooting him in the head?
I guess my point is it seems like some have decided to arbirtarily shoot him in the head while he`s on the ground.
Is he still a threat is the only question that has to be answered to defend yourself with lethal force. If the gun has been dislodged from his hand, it isn't within his reach, he's not trying to retrieve it, the imminent threat is over unless he makes furtive movement that could indicate a second gun is about to be put in play.

I am standing three steps from the door, has the threat been stopped and can I remove myself from the threat?

Perhaps you can remove yourself from the area, but if he's still got the means to cause serious bodily harm or death [ that gun he has ], I'm not trying to extricate myself while he has the means to potentially shoot me in the back as I attempt to unarse the area.

I guess my point is it seems like some have decided to arbirtarily shoot him in the head while he`s on the ground

If he's no longer an immediate threat, that would be unlawful. If he's still a threat, it doesn't matter where you shoot him again, and again and again until that threat is removed.
 
#26 ·
The scenario where I envision having to use a headshot is where the attacker is wearing armor. That, if I have no choice at all but to engage, like if confronted by an active shooter, I would shoot COM to try and gain some time or knock off balance and then (God help me) *close the distance* and try to take a head shot. I try to imagine it so I would have the courage to do it. I hope I never find out.
 
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#31 ·
The only time I would think about a head shot is if shooter was not looking at me but going to shoot someone else an I had a little time to take a bead on him. Than a cocked .357 within 15 feet should do the job, otherwise center mass double tap, if still standing holding gun repeat till bg or gun hits the floor.
 
#32 ·
I think it would depend on the distance between you and the attacker plus how much time you have. If the attacker is around 10ft from me I would aim for center mass or chest area no head shot.
 
#33 ·
I'm thinking there are many who need to do some FOF, just to prove to themselves what does work and what does not. FOF has shown me just because it seemed to work in my head did not mean it worked going up against actual live human aggression.
 
#35 ·
There are a couple posts on this thread that indicate the person has actually been involved in a real situation where their life was in direct danger.

If and when that happens you will not be thinking of lawyers flying from your barrel attached to your bullets, backstops, yoga, nor will you have time to think of any of that.

If you are fortunate you will know your life is under threat with enough time to draw and fire. There is far from a guarantee of even that.

If your that lucky and your fast enough you might survive a serious attempt to kill you. Or you may not. What for sure you wont do is think about lawyers, backstops, positions, and morals. There wont be time. :icon_neutral:
 
#36 ·
As with any of these scenarios, that's why it's important to think about this stuff BEFORE it happens...and visualize and train...and decide in your own mind the risks or consequences you are willing to take or submit others to.
 
#41 ·
I will always go for center mass with a pistol!!! If the threat is still advancing, I will keep shooting and move. Unless you receive alot of training and do alot of dirt time, and go through alot of stress training. The head is just to hard of a target to aquire in the time and situation's that happen. Your concern for innocent is great and should be on your mind. But for me if I put two or three .45 in center mass and threat still coming I am dropping lower! I learned this long time ago in Corps (just now coming out in civilian world), if you can put one or two in hip girdle you bust the "Wheel" and cannt advance, also bigger. I always taught close combat, take out mobility, air and/or vision, no one can fight with one of these gone!
 
#42 ·
Actually current research shows that shots to the pelvis with a pistol are not likely to be effective. Simply not enough energy to sufficiently disrupt the large bone mass.

Situation will dictate but head shots are viable but also are not magic bullets. If you don't hit the right spot an opponent can continue to do you harm, just as he could with a shot to any other nonvital area.

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