Endless Scenarios...Many Possible Outcomes

This is a discussion on Endless Scenarios...Many Possible Outcomes within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm sure we all know well that carrying a firearm is a large responsibility. Of late I have been considering many, many scenarios; all of ...

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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Endless Scenarios...Many Possible Outcomes

    I'm sure we all know well that carrying a firearm is a large responsibility.

    Of late I have been considering many, many scenarios; all of which seem to require different responses..responses that only allow
    for split second decision making. In these decision making processes we must factor in the law; yet it seems in this political climate
    we are faced with gray areas.

    I've heard the old adage "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six". I suppose there is some truth in that.

    With that said, I had a interesting scenario discussion with a fellow LTC friend.

    1) At what point does one unholster and point at the threat?
    2) Is the command "GET ON THE GROUND" wise?

    The above questions stemmed from this hypothetical:

    a) You are approached in the street by someone panhandling for money.
    b) Out of kindness you reach into your wallet and give them 5 bucks..OR; you say "sorry, I have no cash"
    c) The panhandler regardless of your response lays hands on you and pushes you up against a wall and now demands money.
    d) You are able to escape their grasp and move away a few feet.
    e) The assailant pursues you to attempt a obvious robbery.

    For me; this is not a easy answer.

    Here's why. The assailant in this scenario (could) have a weapon. (Knife or gun) and my compliance hardly guarantees my safety.

    So; how do we respond to this particular scenario?

    My LTC friend answered "If I un-holster, I will use my weapon"

    My answer: If I had achieved some distance from the assailant, I would draw, point, and order them to the ground.

    If they are non compliant to my order; well I guess we have a new scenario.

    What concerns me as a gun owner with a LTC is the definition of "Imminent Bodily Harm"
    "When those who are governed do too little, those who govern can, and will, do too much." Ronald Reagan

    Do what you can; then do what you must

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    Member Array floggindave's Avatar
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    Per your hypothetical: If a man layed hands or pushes me against a wall, breaking away and gaining distance is a first priority. Should they pursue me, they will see my weapon. I very much disagree with "If I un-holster, I will use my weapon" as it stands, rather I amend it to "If I un-holster, I will use my weapon if you do not stop this aggression instantly." There are plenty of instances where someone sees the presentation of a weapon and stops an attack. Most criminals want an easy target, not to die. I would rather yell "Stop! I am in fear for my life" as opposed to "get on the ground." I have no intention of detaining anyone, or keeping them there until police arrive unless that is their choice. I want the threat gone and away from me. As far as the concern for your liability in a shooting? It's a coin toss. Depends on the DA or the Jury in their personal terms of the "reasonable man" scenario.

    I have only recently started to carry, so please understand that I speak with only limited experience.

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    "I will use my weapon..."

    I take that as to meaning "I will fire." I am not a follower of that theory as it leaves you and the other party no opportunity to de-escalate, only to escalate.

    No one answer fits any two scenarios. What I will do depends entirely on the situation at the time.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Panhandler asks for money. You pull out your firearm and ask him for his. That way you don't get robbed, AND you get money... It's a win-win.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RightsEroding View Post
    I'm sure we all know well that carrying a firearm is a large responsibility.

    Of late I have been considering many, many scenarios; all of which seem to require different responses..responses that only allow
    for split second decision making. In these decision making processes we must factor in the law; yet it seems in this political climate
    we are faced with gray areas.

    I've heard the old adage "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six". I suppose there is some truth in that.

    With that said, I had a interesting scenario discussion with a fellow LTC friend.

    1) At what point does one unholster and point at the threat?
    2) Is the command "GET ON THE GROUND" wise?

    The above questions stemmed from this hypothetical:

    a) You are approached in the street by someone panhandling for money.
    b) Out of kindness you reach into your wallet and give them 5 bucks..OR; you say "sorry, I have no cash"
    c) The panhandler regardless of your response lays hands on you and pushes you up against a wall and now demands money.
    d) You are able to escape their grasp and move away a few feet.
    e) The assailant pursues you to attempt a obvious robbery.

    For me; this is not a easy answer.

    Here's why. The assailant in this scenario (could) have a weapon. (Knife or gun) and my compliance hardly guarantees my safety.

    So; how do we respond to this particular scenario?

    My LTC friend answered "If I un-holster, I will use my weapon"

    My answer: If I had achieved some distance from the assailant, I would draw, point, and order them to the ground.

    If they are non compliant to my order; well I guess we have a new scenario.

    What concerns me as a gun owner with a LTC is the definition of "Imminent Bodily Harm"
    Each step of your A through E takes you further into the painted corner. Don't engage strangers, and don't wait on them to bring their act to you.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    No weapon in the BGs hand, no gun in my hand. If he gets the better of me and I am in a life and death situation I will present my firearm. However, most of the time it will not come to that. Simple H2H skills, or a less lethal option will help with the scenario you are talking about. Remember AOJ....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    The first thing is that you don't let someone close enough to physically engage you. They could have a knife and if they do, you have already lost.

    I was at a restaurant with the wife and kid one night. We were getting out of the car and this scruffy looking guy starting walking up to the car. I told him stop and don't come any closer, he froze and said he didn't want any trouble, he was just looking for change. I told his we don't carry cash and he needed to walk the other way. He did.

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    Distinguished Member Array Glock2201's Avatar
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    As far as imminent bodily harm I doubt he grabbed you so he can feel the material if your clothes so you are in potential danger so IMO gaining a little distance so you can draw your weapon telling to keep his hands away from his body in case he does have a weapon. If he complies try to get a little more distance and hopefully someone is around to call 911 so you don't have to. If the thug turns around and runs let him go as you are keeping a close eye on him while trying to find some cover in case he has a gun and turns around to use it. If he continues towards you then the game is on and you need to do whatever you need to do to stop the threat.

    I too have only been carrying for a while but this IMO is the best way to handle it. I do look forward to see if some other people have a better way to respond and maybe I can learn something.
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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    your failure begins at B -- you should be carrying pocket money in the form of some folded bills separate from the wallet.
    thus you can pay for small things without taking out your wallet in crowded places or for the pan-handler

    C if your lack of situational awareness -- you let some one get close to you without having already let him know he was too close

    i'd suggest you re-evaluate your perception of being ready...playing the 'what-if' game such that you do not allow yourself to be,
    as was noted, painted into a corner.
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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    most 'gppd' people simply do not understand, can not think like a 'bad' person

    most pan-handlers, street people are creatures of opportunity.
    they see you as potential...thus they approach and feel you out
    they will push in incremental steps, moving closer, asking for things, the time, a cigarette, small change --
    actually almost all will back off if told to -- and the telling is in your body language, your eyes, your voice

    the closer they get to you, the bolder they become
    touching you allows them to know if you are armed and to control you...
    a simple gathering of your shirt and you may be taken to the ground
    --take a martial arts class in combination with gun/defensive training.

    to defend against an enemy, 1st you must know how he is built -- what motivates him, how he thinks.
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    The above questions stemmed from this hypothetical:

    a) You are approached in the street by someone panhandling for money.
    b) Out of kindness you reach into your wallet and give them 5 bucks..OR; you say "sorry, I have no cash"
    c) The panhandler regardless of your response lays hands on you and pushes you up against a wall and now demands money.
    He gets to feel what h2h defensive skills feel like, you've just been assaulted.
    d) You are able to escape their grasp and move away a few feet.
    I've got him where I want him, he gets to go to the hospital for some undetermined injuries
    e) The assailant pursues you to attempt a obvious robbery.
    See above,

    For me; this is not a easy answer.

    Don't poke the bear, you won't get bitten. I'll not abide the idea of people laying hands on me aggressively and not giving them some pain for their efforts. In this scenario, there's no need to draw the firearm, he's not made himself an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death at that point.
    BradL and gatorbait51 like this.
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    Member Array BradL's Avatar
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    In this instance, I would find other ways to remove myself from this situation. A H2H beating is easier to explain to law enforcement than a shooting. Until this guy pulls a weapon, knife, baseball bat, gun etc... My weapon stays holstered....
    I don't want to be a hero, but I'm sure not going to be a victim.

    Hydrogen and human stupidty are the two most common elements on earth, not necessarily in that order. -- Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by BradL View Post
    In this instance, I would find other ways to remove myself from this situation. A H2H beating is easier to explain to law enforcement than a shooting. Until this guy pulls a weapon, knife, baseball bat, gun etc... My weapon stays holstered....
    Yup, it's not a gun solution at that stage of contact. Mine has always stayed holstered until it's time to defend myself with it. Once that decision has been made, there's very little time for them to change their mind before they are perforated, probably repeatedly.
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    Senior Member Array Oldpsufan's Avatar
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    OK, this whole scenario takes on a different light if the person being assailed is old, handicapped, or frail. At the point of perceived threat then what ?
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    Distinguished Member Array Glock2201's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradL View Post
    In this instance, I would find other ways to remove myself from this situation. A H2H beating is easier to explain to law enforcement than a shooting. Until this guy pulls a weapon, knife, baseball bat, gun etc... My weapon stays holstered....
    What if the H2H beating is one where you are the one that is taking the beating and then when he haves you down he pulls a weapon or feels yours and gets it? It is too late then. If I am minding my own business and not starting anything why should I take a beating or worse because I do not want to give them money.
    Oldpsufan likes this.

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