When to draw and fire?

[snowdoctor]

I don't think you overreacted at all. I commend you for being vigilant enough to scan and not step out of the car. I think I would have had the firearm a little more accessible before he approached, but hindsight is 20/20 and it probably happened real fast. The car is your best option here...just get out of the situation.
I agree, most panhandlers are harmless enough, USUALLY...but why take a chance, and you stated he wasn't the 'regular' homeless person, by his dress.
It is nice to know your son is aware also.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[msg usa]

msg usa - Just curious, and not really sure if you're being sarcastic... at what point would someone actually become a threat while you are inside your parked vehicle (with loved ones also inside) - when they actually aim a firearm at you?

Serious as a heart attack. I'm old. I've lived in many countries, carried a whole lot of weapons, and been on the losing end of the gun several times and have survived. The situation, as was described, in my opinion, was annoying, needed to be watched closely, but when I withdraw a gun from the holster, I am fully prepared to kill or be killed. These lessons have served me well. What surprises me often is that folks write these posts describing in dime-novel detail what transpired, then they ask for opinions. When those opinions run counter to what they expect, they whine. If you pull your weapon, son, be ready to kill, or be killed....my opinion! (and try to not get into a firefight in the middle of a friggin gas station}

Master Sergeant, US Army Retired

[farronwolf]

The panhandler was moving from car to car. Apparently he was taking no for an answer from all the rest of the people he talked to, and moved along without incident.

When son said man approaching from 9:00, I definately would not be pulling any weapon because someone is walking across the parking lot.

If I felt threatened by someone outside my vehicle (this case does not appear to me to be a threat) with the windows up and doors locked I would have started the car, regadless of whether or not you had to loose eye contact that would only be a second if your familiar with the car, and left the area. It doesn't do any good to get into a verbal discussion with someone about why you don't want to lower your window. If you don't feel comfortable lowering the window then don't even have the discussion.

In this case I would probably be with the few others that would have just continued to get out pump gas and be on my way. Telling the guy I didn't have any spare money when he asked. If he persisted on getting some help I would have referred him to the local charities in our town that can be of assistance to people in need. If he wasn't willing to listen to what I had to say about places he could get help then that is his problem, not mine, I did what I could do for him.

Since I use a ccard to purchase gas it takes all of 5 seconds to pull it out of wallet slide it into the pump and place it back in to pants pocket. I carry cash, but most people never see it even at the stores. Not necessarily because I am worried about it, but that is just the way I do things.

[cosermann]

Means, motive, and opportunity - I think all three were NOT present here, hence gun stays in holster.

[cagueits]

robere – next time I will definetly leave instead of staying put;

sheldon j – as I said earlier, I fumbled with the leaving part of the equation; concur with the rest of your coment.

havegunjoe – I will give your comment some thought and see if it possible – some owners just don’t care / their businesses are fronts for drugs/money laundering.

deadmarsh – concur, I fumbled.

I4ce – I do not share your views, however thank you for commenting.

gotammo – concur, fumbled, will try to do better next time.

freakshow10mm – I thought this guy would be like most panhandlers (you say no, they go away), didn’t see him as that much of a threat until he said “Or what?”

snowdoctor – concur with getting out of there and that it happened real fast.

msg usa –

Serious as a heart attack. – well, could’t really tell from your post.

I'm old. I've lived in many countries, carried a whole lot of weapons, and been on the losing end of the gun several times and have survived. – and that tells me what? That you see yourself as a salty dog/an old timer with an attitude? I’m 30 years old, I’ve also lived in many countries, carried weapons there and been on the loosing end of the gun several times, and have survived as well; if you are refering to military training/experience... it doesn't always help you in civilian life; your point with this phrase was?

The situation, as was described, in my opinion, was annoying, needed to be watched closely, but when I withdraw a gun from the holster, I am fully prepared to kill or be killed. – thank you for taking the time to comment something constructive.

These lessons have served me well. – what lessons? The ones learned on the service in foreign lands with the Army? Some don’t have that experience for whatever reasons they had; this forum (I think) is a vehicle for like minded individuals to share experiences and comment on how to better carry weapons, be a better person. How are the lessons you learned useful to other if you don’t take the time to go into detail about what we are doing wrong (other than saying “No threat”)?

What surprises me often is that folks write these posts describing in dime-novel detail what transpired, then they ask for opinions. – it surprises you that some people might want constructive criticism, to stay out of danger in the future, by not committing the same mistake twice, thanks to advice from other forum members?

When those opinions run counter to what they expect, they whine. – the only one whining here seems to be you MSG, behave like a good Senior Staff Non-Commisioned Officer.

If you pull your weapon, son, be ready to kill, or be killed....my opinion! – again, thank you for taking the time to comment, as it seems like sound advice.

and try to not get into a firefight in the middle of a friggin gas station – I’ll try my best not to get into any trouble, so I can enjoy my life with friends/family – that is the reason I took the time to share the event of last Saturday morning, and for checking this forum regularly.

R/S

C. A. Gueits

Former Sergeant, USMC

farronwolf – I only saw him move from one car (didn’t see the BG interact with anyone else before the BG hit the oldlady for money, he just appeared from behind a car - I didn't say other people were saying no to him - my bad if what I wrotte was understood that way) to the other (the one operated by the lady who gave him a dollar bill - it was more like a "give me some money" and the lady just whiped out a dollar bill - it happened real fast), then he was at my driver side door.

Concur with not presenting any weapons, still I will be ready to draw if necessary.

Concur with leaving the area, not with breaking eye contact – I just purchased my current vehicle a little over a month and a half ago (from an automatic transmission 1983 Honda Accord Dx, to manual transmission 2000 Infiniti G20t), maybe that was part of the fumble? (Who knows.) Concur with not discussing with a stranger, I just played a card that didn’t work (I counted on him moving along when I said no / just ask for money a couple more times; I counted on that if he kept asking I would just leave – never I imagined he would say “Or what?” and stick his hand on his pocket {remember I said this guy didn’t look scroungy/with the average panhandler look, but then I just thought about the way he dresses/acted in maybe... +/- 2-3 seconds})

I wish we had the swipe the card thing at the pump in Puerto Rico, however I haven’t seen a single one on the places I’ve visited. PR businesses prefer cash - that way they can omit certain transactions to the State IRS (PR doesn't file taxes with the Federal IRS unless you are a federal employee stationed in the island).

cosermann – I do not share your views, but thank you for commenting.

Means, did the BG had a gun in his pocket?(how am I to know until he draws?) Motive, we just had an argument in where he didn’t obtain what he wanted/felt insulted/got really agitated + these days seems anyone will kill anyone for the most stupid reasons (I could’ve killed the panhandler out of fear, but didn’t thanks in part to threads from the Tactical Scenarios from this forum – they make you think in advance and be one step ahead in most circumstances). Opportunity, this guy was about 3 feet away, not over 21feet away, the only thing separating us was a glass window – at that distance, had he pulled a gun, I might’ve lost (action beats reaction).

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These people (panhandlers, drug addicts, robbers, etc) don’t have anything to loose, but we do. We can get shot with a gun, slashed or stabbed with a knife, or stuck with a syringe – and get Hepatitis/AIDS/etc, and die a slow painful death - just for looking at someone the wrong way, or just for being next to/interact with someone at the wrong place/time.

Thank you to all of those who have provided constructive criticism.

Sorry for making you waste your time, if you deem this thread is not useful to you.

[msg usa]

I retract my last post. Unfair, unprofessional. Bottom line, if you ask for opinions, be ready for what comes back. Glad you survived your encounter. Merry Christmas.

[cagueits]

Thank you for your opinion/advice MSgt; Merry Christmas to you and yours also.

[retsupt99]

would have been for the ingition...but my weapon would have already been under my thigh or otherwise 'ready'. I want no part of a confrontation...I would only repeat, loudly, to get away.
"I don't know you, get away!" Possibly using the horn might also increase 'area' awareness and help the 'loser' decide to leave quickly.

He would have NOT seen my weapon in this scenario...

OMO

ret

[razorblade]

cagueits, you were able to stay calm and have enough composure to remember you had a cell phone in your hand and use it. Good for you. I'm also glad the situation didn't escalate any further.
If it were me and I noticed the panhandler but had not exited the car, I'd probably sit and watch for a few seconds, get a good description, drive across the street and called for a uniformed officer to handle the situation. Of course this is me doing the Armchair Quarterback routine, but my gut instinct tells me I would have probably booked it.
Not to compare situations, but something simular (well, not really simular) happened to me this summer. I pulled into a McDonalds late one evening to satisfy a Big Mac craving. As I pulled in, I noticed 4 thuggish looking guys milling around the "place order here" speaker. My gut told me this wasn't good, so I drove across the street to Wendy's. Later that evening I thought to myself I could have pulled into the parking lot, and walked into the restaurant. I had my 1911, pepper spray and cell on me. What's to worry? No punks are going to intimidate me. Then I began to think deeper about it and realized that self defense goes hand in hand with using the path of least resistance. Sure, I could have gone inside the restaraunt, but they could just have very well followed me in, or wait for me to exit. My masculinity was in check, no confrontation necessary, all is good. I decided then and there that if another situation like that arises, the best thing to do is leave the area immidiatly, and if necessary call the cops. Only if my exit were blocked, would I then create an doorway for myself. I know people will deem me as a defeatist because I choose to avoid a situation, but I feel for myself it's the best thing to do.

[tanksoldier]

When he put his hands in his pockets I would have drawn. It would be reasonable to think that he had a weapon. After drawing I would have told him to back away frfom the car, then get down in the spread-prone. I would have had the son call 911.

Trying to get the window down is a classic car jacking/ car mugging tactic. With the window down and you sitting in the car you're virtually helpless against a knife or gun. If he was just looking for a handout, you handled that thru the closed window. The only reason to get the window down was to rob you.

Using the vehicle as a weapon is something to be considered, but I don't think it would have helped in this case. The BG was beside the vehicle, then moved in front... but you really only could drive over him AFTER he presented his weapon, and doing that from a standing start might not be as effective as just shooting him and he probably would have gotten a few rounds off. . I'm also not sure I'd want to drive away when there's a potential for someone to be shooting at me from behind. I guess it would depend on the felling I was getting from the BG, which is tough to judge here.

Drawing your weapon is justified based on his behaviour and putting his hands in his pockets, and it prevents him from presenting his own weapon while not requiring that you actually harm him... and giving you the option to do so if the situation deteriorates farther.

[ccw9mm]

Ability: Aggressive, healthy male with attitude; unknown if armed, but his size, youth and aggressiveness stack strongly against me (disabled) seated (belted) in a car with my child with me.

Opportunity: He's right there. Getting through a car window is child's play. If it goes ballistic, it could spiral very quickly and easily.

Jeopardy: Not yet, though he's on the fringe. By his actions of placing hand forcefully in the pocket and standing in front of the vehicle, he is telegraphing his manifest intent to (a) impinge on our freedom to be where we're allowed and justified to be and (b) to inhibit any escape/withdrawal. It is not yet a lethal threat.

However, if the BG has a firearm or knife in that pocket, then damn right there's an instant lethal threat, so ...

I would unholster (or certainly maintain my hand on the gun) and prepare for what strongly appears to be coming, a violent assault on me and my child. As it's out of sight, it is not brandishing in any sense of the word. Given his actual demeanor, words ("or what!") and actions (hand thrust into pocket and stepping directly to the nose of my car), it is highly likely he has the idea of damaging us on his mind. Much better to be prepared, but await his actions. (Police have been capped for far less by thugs who catch them napping, holstered and condition-white in just such a scenario, not anticipating possible outcomes.) Frankly, though, if he were to actually attempt to enter the car, I'd simply speed away. However, if he were to draw a firearm and begin shooting, I'd be better prepared to withstand the onslaught.

My child's life comes first, and this man's overall demeanor is simply not consistent with wishing us well; it's highly consistent with wishing us harm.

[razorblade]

I wanted to touch on something relating to this topic. It's more tactics related and in regards to actually performing the draw from the seated position with your carry rig. Several months ago, I began carrying my 1911 in a vertical holster. Prior to that, it was an FBI cant. I've drawn my Steyr from the seated position and had to lean forward (slightly) to clear the holster. But with the vertical holster (and how I naturally sit in my vehicle), it's darn near impossible. I tried it last week, and my chest almost touches the steering wheel. A good exercise is to see where you stand drawing from the seated position. What adjustments do you have to make, or if it's completely unacccesible, would it be worth carrying a second gun in immidate reach inside the vehicle.
Also with incoming rounds, expect spalding from the glass.

Just suggestions.

[ccw9mm]

I began carrying my 1911 in a vertical holster. Prior to that, it was an FBI cant. I've drawn my Steyr from the seated position and had to lean forward (slightly) to clear the holster. But with the vertical holster (and how I naturally sit in my vehicle), it's darn near impossible.

I carry a CZ P01 OWB with cant (at the moment). I find the simplest way is to thrust my hips up to the steering wheel, while balancing on the shoulders against the seat. By doing so, the draw happens very easily, while staying seated and leaning forward simply serves (with the P01 and my holster) to tighten the holster's grip on the gun such that drawing is darned near impossible. Not for everyone, but it might work given your combination of equipment.

This is all silly of course, given that alternative holsters are far preferable while seated in a car, for exactly these reasons. But, it does work for me.

[Only Glock]

These guys are harmless, especially when you are confident and don't make a big deal about them.

That's a dangerous assumption, especially considering a loved one in the car. All it takes is for one to become violent, while you are under the false security that they are all harmless.

[Only Glock]

Cagueits, this comes from a LEO perspective. So... I think you handled the situation well, since at the end, you or your son were not injured. Anytime someone digs into a pocket, jacket, whatever, after being confrontational/combative with me, they are going to get drawn on. I would have unholstered when he became insistent on my opening the window. When he reached into his pocket, he would have been looking down the barrel of my Glock.
My take on drawing your weapon is this... (I am no lawyer, so state laws may vary, etc.) Neither my department's general orders, nor my state law say that I cannot draw my weapon unless someone is actually showing a weapon, knife, etc. If I reasonably perceive the threat of death or grave bodily injury to myself or another, I may use deadly force to prevent that death or bodily injury. If the threat stops when I draw my weapon, then it has served its purpose without being fired. In a situation like that, I don't see how you would have been UNjustified in drawing your weapon and taking aim right between his eyes. You don't have to wait until someone actually fires a shot to draw your weapon. If you wait until they present their weapon before you draw, you are already at a tactical disadvantage (you being in the military, you already know this, so I am not trying to be condescending).
Overall, in my opinion, you didn't overreact by recognizing this as a potential threat.