When to draw and fire?

This is a discussion on When to draw and fire? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Last Saturday morning, I was on my way to drop off my son at a relative's house, when I decided to stop for gas. I ...

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  • I would have never unholstered - there was never a threat.

    40 21.28%
  • I would have unholstered, kept handgun out of sight as BG aproached my vehicle

    28 14.89%
  • I would have unholstered, kept handgun out of sight as BG said "Or what?"

    12 6.38%
  • I would have unholstered, kept handgun out of sight as BG stuck hand in pocket

    54 28.72%
  • I would have unholstered, kept handgun in plain sight, but not aimed at BG as BG aproached my vehicle

    3 1.60%
  • I would have unholstered, kept handgun in plain sight, but not aimed at BG as BG said "Or what?"

    2 1.06%
  • I would have unholstered, kept handgun in plain sight, but not aimed at BG as BG stuck hand in pocket

    10 5.32%
  • I would have unholstered, kept handgun in plain sight, and aimed at BG as BG aproached my vehicle

    0 0%
  • I would have unholstered, kept handgun in plain sight, and aimed at BG as BG said "Or what?"

    3 1.60%
  • I would have unholstered, kept handgun in plain sight, and aimed at BG as BG stuck hand in pocket

    15 7.98%
  • Other

    21 11.17%
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Thread: When to draw and fire?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    When to draw and fire?

    Last Saturday morning, I was on my way to drop off my son at a relative's house, when I decided to stop for gas. I do the usual scan for threats before parking next to the pump, then again before shuting down the engine/exiting the vehicle to refuel. Just before getting out of my vehicle, I noticed a panhandler moving from car to car (didn't see him pulling in or before shutting vehicle off) and something didn't feel right about this guy.

    Most panhandlers in my area are drug users/homeless, have no where to go, scroungy, etc; this one looked like he had matching brand name clothing, baseball cap, and back pack, as well as an attitude. I had 1/4 tank of gas left on my vehicle, so I decided to stay inside the vehicle, say no if asked for money; if he kept insisting, I would leave and go somewhere else.

    So my son goes "guy aproaching from the 9 o'clock", then it starts:

    BG - (motions me to lower my window).

    ME- I don't have any money on me (and pretend I'm on my cell phone talking to someone).

    BG - I just asked you to roll down your window.

    ME - I said I don't have any money (I close my phone as if I'm finished talking).

    BG - Listen man I just want you to roll down the window(getting all pissed off)!

    ME - I said I don't have any money, please go away.

    BG - Go away? Or what?

    ME - (with the "Or what?" I started to get concerned for my safety; had two options in my mind, 1) start the car and leave - however I had the ignition key on my dominant hand, wich would mean that in order to start the car, I would have to take my eyes off the BG - to inser the key in the ignition, or 2) stay put, flip cell phone open and dial 911 while dealing with BG - I chose option # 2 so as not to take eyes of the BG - cell phone was in non dominant hand and I have 1touch 911 button on it) Listen, I said I don't have any money, go away or I'll cal the Police. (flipped phone open for him to see what I was doing with non dominant hand, never took eyes from BG's hands/face).

    BG - You gona call the Police over me asking you for money? (first he had a look in his face as if he was actually insulted by me saying I would cal the Police, then he really looked pissed off)

    ME - (at this point I thought - he's gona kick the car, probably break something in the hood, and you are gona put the vehicle's key in the ignition and back away from this place) Keep moving, go away, I'm calling the Police!

    BG - Call them! (BG steped around to the front of my vehicle).

    ME - (I said to myself "you got insurance, don't get pissed off").

    BG - (BG stuck his right hand on his pocket while looking at me with a REALLY angry look in his face).

    ME - (At this point I was in fear for my life and the life of my son. I was ready to deal with the BG according to his next move).

    BG - (stops in front of car, looks at me and pulls hand out of pocket in an abrubt manner, and starts mocking me "I'm gona call the Police if you don't leave", bla, bla, bla - hand that was pulled from pocket was dialing 911 in imaginary phone (part of BG's mocking). BG kept moving and I left the place in a hurry.

    Feel free to critique my actions, what would you have done differently, etc. This all happened in a matter of maybe 12-15 seconds from"his motions to roll the window down" to him mocking me. No shots fired, neither BG nor anyone else saw my firearm, I didn't "call it in" to Police - as it was a "he said/you said/nobody else saw anything thing" (besides PR Police is notorious for not answering calls for help unless someone actually shots someone).

    My question, the one for the poll:

    At what point would you react to the BG and what would your reaction be?

    Poll is anonymous.

    BG looked just like him:

    http://www.usmarshals.gov/district/p...tives/capo.pdf

    http://www.usmarshals.gov/district/pr/

    PS - It wasn't the guy on the link; he was actually caught Tuesday night - thats when I remembered about the whole incident on Saturday morning and decided to review what I did right/wrong (the guy at the gas pump could have actually been the guy on the link - by comparing the wanted photos with the BG at the pump; it wasn't the case, arrest photos for BG on the link revealed he gained a lot of weight/wanted photos did not represent him correctly).

    Sorry for the long rant.
    Last edited by cagueits; December 7th, 2006 at 04:32 PM. Reason: Typo

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  3. #2
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    Array rocky's Avatar
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    Sounds o.k. with my kids I would have found the ingnition earlier and left, but then I am LH, so my RH is free to start and shift . Sometimes by interoggating someone as to their motives(why do you want me to open the window) gets em to back off too. they either figure you are a cop or aware enough to not fall for their ploy.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  4. #3
    Member Array walther1's Avatar
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    I would have been out of there. It doesn't cost anything to leave a situation before it arises. If something doesn't smell right, I don't want to stay and breathe in the stench.
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    Life, liberty, and the pursuit of the ultimate CC gun!

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    I concur with both of your opinions. I didn't plan for a panhandler to turn that agresive in so little time.

    I must admit, I fumbled in the "leaving before trouble arrieses" part of the equation. I must say, everything happened so fast; from the time he hit the previous car for money (the driver, an old lady, gave him a dolar!) to the time he was at my door there were but merely 5 seconds - he walked damn fast/must've had a good hidding spot!

  6. #5
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    These situations flare up like flash powder, but now you know that.

    I'm with walther1 on this.

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array PapaScout's Avatar
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    With dominant hand either on or "close enough" to pistol I would just lay on the horn until he left. He escalates with force (not yelling) then so do I.
    "If you so much as bunny hop I'll cut your heart out!" Billy Bob Thornton in The Last Real Cowboys

    "I carry a gun for the same reason that I carry health insurance and a cell phone - be prepared."

  8. #7
    Member Array msg usa's Avatar
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    No threat. Someone watches too much TV.
    God Bless the USA

  9. #8
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    msg usa - Just curious, and not really sure if you're being sarcastic... at what point would someone actually become a threat while you are inside your parked vehicle (with loved ones also inside) - when they actually aim a firearm at you?

  10. #9
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    I absolutley agree. Leave the area if possible. The situation may have been different if you were already pumping gas and could'nt just leave. You were'nt commited to staying there ( having to pay etc ) , so i say leave........

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    First off I keep my ignition ring tight, only keys for 3 cars on it and they all have a different feel, I do not need to look at the ring to find the key or at the car to insert the key into the ignition, so the car would have been started as soon as he started to get belligerent, when he went in front reverse works just fine, then do a 911 and wait out of his range of abuse for the police to show.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    One thing you might do is report the incident to the store owner. He lost busniess because of this guy. I had a panhandler approach me while eating outside a restaurant with my family. He moved on when I told him no and I said something to the owner. She talked to him because she had an arrangement where she would give him food but it was understood that he never bothered her customers. My guy looked pretty harmless but this guy sounded otherwise.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  13. #12
    Member Array deadmarsh's Avatar
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    Your best weapon there was the car. I would have started the car and attempted to leave the scene. And in the process, if he had had a firearm in his pocket, pulled it, and aimed it in my direction before I could get away -- well, then, it's duck, accelerate at the guy with the car, and end the situation, followed by a 911 call and getting witnesses lined up for the coppers...

  14. #13
    New Member Array I4ce's Avatar
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    I don't think I would have worried about the guy. I lived in Oakland, CA for a few years and was approached numerous times with much more aggressive transients. I would have left the car and locked the doors, then proceeded to pump gas. I would have brushed the guy off and pumped gas. These guys are harmless, especially when you are confident and don't make a big deal about them.

  15. #14
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    1/4 tank will get you to the next station, drive away situation over no gun required.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    So my son goes "guy aproaching from the 9 o'clock", then it starts
    Right there my hand is on my gun moving it to my lap.

    He motions for pocket my gun is up and pointing at him.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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