Holding gun on someone

This is a discussion on Holding gun on someone within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A lot of the BGs know the law as well or better than most of us; a common tactic I have heard of is to ...

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Thread: Holding gun on someone

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    A lot of the BGs know the law as well or better than most of us; a common tactic I have heard of is to turn their back to you as soon as resistance is recognized and start yelling "I'm sorry; I'm sorry" so as to attract attention of any witnesses. They know their intended victim is law abiding/fearful of arrest in an unjustified shooting and probably won’t shoot them in the back. That is also why they have nothing to lose by running from the police, they know they won’t get shot, might get away, if caught won’t get any more time than original crime.

    Just like the jihadies in the Middle East locate their weapons in with civilians to keep us civilized types from bombing them. The BGs who would stick a knife in your back in a NY minute will give you nothing but a back shot knowing most likely you, a law abider, won’t take it.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    I have to admit to some confusion about this, too.

    We read all the time about people who successfully hold attackers or burglars at gunpoint until police arrive -- one case that was written about on this forum said that the man held the suspect for something like 25 minutes, (IIRC)!

    I really don't know what choice the gun owner would have if the badguy just decides to say, "Hell with you, I'm leaving!"

    If I come home to find a burglar rummaging through my home, and I draw on him and yell, "Get down on the floor! I've called the police and they are on the way to arrest you! Don't move!" -- if he should decide to say, "No way, man, I'm sorry, I'll just leave now," and heads toward a nearby exit, I don't think there's much that I could do, legally.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick7340 View Post
    I will not pull my gun unless I plan on using it to defend a life. If I bring deadly force to a situation that didn't require it then the DA will have a field day with that one if things took a turn for the worst.
    This bears directly on the oft-discussed subject of, "Do you HAVE to fire your gun just because you have drawn it;
    and if you don't end up firing, should it be concluded that ex post facto you were not justified drawing in the first place?"

    I don't believe either of those are true.

    In fact, think of the statistics about defensive gun use in the U.S.: 700,000 - 2,000,000 defensive gun uses annually! The statistic say that a tiny minority of defensive gun uses results in shots fired and badguys injured or killed. This backs up the notion that not every draw will, or should, result in a shooting. Imagine if it did: we'd have a lot smaller population of criminals, I think.

    I think that what the bad guy does (i.e. wait for police submissively, run away, continue to attack you) will have something to do with what you say to him during the altercation, and what your demeanor is. Perhaps we should practice saying forceful, scary, "I'm-gonna-kill-you-if-you-so-much-as-twitch,-Mo-Fo!" things so as to make them really worry about their future if they try to get away.

    Of course, the moment that it seems that the badguy is moving toward us, everything changes and I'm pretty sure that shots'll be fired and we won't be very concerned with whether he runs away before the cops arrive or not.

  5. #19
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    OK peaceful...
    If I come home to find a burglar rummaging through my home, and I draw on him and yell, "Get down on the floor! I've called the police and they are on the way to arrest you! Don't move!"

    To quote that great sage Tuco "When it's time to shoot....shoot...don't talk".

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEV View Post
    The use of deadly force if legally authorized in the first place ends immediately when the intial threat ends. A fleeing BG in and of itself is no longer a threat. Deadly force cannot be used to hold him until LEO arrival.
    I'm not sure what the implications of this are.

    If you surprise the knife-wielding badguy with your gun, and he drops the knife and cowers, are you supposed to, what, reholster your gun and make him a glass of iced tea? He's still a dangerous threat by virtue of what he was doing a moment before! What do you mean that deadly force cannot be used to hold him until LEO arrival? We have to put away the gun but hope he stays put without that power being held over him?? That doesn't seem to make sense. Could you please elucidate?

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
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    Good Question w/o an answer

    I heard a lot of advice to a good question but I dont think it was answered fully.

    Suppose your use of your gun, whether you fired it or not, does stop the BG. You are still faced with a choice of holding your gun on a dead, almost dead, or a BG who surrendered. Since the response time can be long for LEOs to show up, what do you do? Hold the gun on them the entire time.

    What I did is order some restraints from Galls.com, you know the plastic ties. My plan is: if I have to shoot and the BG goes down, or if he surrenders, he is getting "cuffed" for his and my safety.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    OK peaceful...



    To quote that great sage Tuco "When it's time to shoot....shoot...don't talk".
    We all recognize here, now and then, that not everyone wants a bloody gutty mess in his living room and a lot of questions that have to be answered by expensive lawyers...

    Some have said that society would be done a favor if, when we have the justification and cause, we rid it of these miscreants (i.e., if you have a reason, make use of it!) and I certainly am inclinded to share that perspective. I never weep over the death of a badguy for any reason. I think of the loss of these "human lives" (term used loosely) as a benefit to humanity as a whole.

    It's just that real life intrudes and brings with it factors that many of our toughguy fantasies about dispatching bad guys don't really tend to include. Like grand juries, questionable circumstances, inconclusive physical evidence; or spotty, iffy "witnesses" who, when they give statements to the police, embellish their stories or don't remember exactly how it went down; or worse yet, witnesses who are more sympathetic to the badguy than they are to you!

    For me, I often think that once the switch has been thrown, and a badguy has made an attempted attack on me, he has forfeited his life for sure. I will probably be angry enough at him that the only thing keeping me from ending his threat decisively will be the potential that I could get into legal trouble for it. I recognize the fact that having him continue to live could bring loads more trouble down on me and mine (retribution, revenge, lawsuits, etc.). But sometimes ending his life can be messier, and unfortunately, we'll have to weigh the pros and cons in a scant few seconds.

  9. #23
    Member Array echo5tango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeephipwr View Post
    I heard a lot of advice to a good question but I dont think it was answered fully.

    Suppose your use of your gun, whether you fired it or not, does stop the BG. You are still faced with a choice of holding your gun on a dead, almost dead, or a BG who surrendered. Since the response time can be long for LEOs to show up, what do you do? Hold the gun on them the entire time.

    What I did is order some restraints from Galls.com, you know the plastic ties. My plan is: if I have to shoot and the BG goes down, or if he surrenders, he is getting "cuffed" for his and my safety.
    no offense but i hope you are properly trained in cuffing techniques. getting within contact distance of someone is always dicey ...

    if i have to draw, and the threat stops, i will remove myself from the situation as soon as possible while calling the police and keeping an eye on the threat.

    there are also times when a command presence will go a long way, and using the "big boy voice" can stop someone pretty quickly

    unfortunately, there are no "right" answers to this question(s) ...
    Last edited by echo5tango; December 7th, 2006 at 07:52 PM. Reason: spelling

  10. #24
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I'm not sure what the implications of this are.

    If you surprise the knife-wielding badguy with your gun, and he drops the knife and cowers, are you supposed to, what, reholster your gun and make him a glass of iced tea? He's still a dangerous threat by virtue of what he was doing a moment before! What do you mean that deadly force cannot be used to hold him until LEO arrival? We have to put away the gun but hope he stays put without that power being held over him?? That doesn't seem to make sense. Could you please elucidate?
    I thought I clarified my statement in my second post on this subject but to further clarify, what I mean is to pull the trigger (use deadly force). As I went on to say I would cover the BG with my handgun until LEO arrived. (display a willingness to use deadly force, if BG attempts to become a threat by moving to re-engage).

    Thanks
    MikeV
    Last edited by MIKEV; December 7th, 2006 at 08:03 PM. Reason: punct.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Another answer I would like is to the question, "If I have shot a badguy and he is not dead, but just injured, apart from calling police/ambulance for him, am I obligated to actually touch the blood-drenched scumbag who just tried to hurt/kill me and render first aid?!"

    I'd be pretty pissed off if someone later argued that I should bear legal or financial liability for damage he suffered because I didn't actively help him after I stopped his initial attack.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEV View Post
    I thought I clarified my statement in my second post on this subject but to further clarify, what I mean is to pull the trigger (use deadly force). As I went on to say I would cover the BG with my handgun until LEO arrived. (display a willingness to use deadly force, if BG attempts to become a threat by moving to re-engage).

    Thanks
    MikeV
    Gotcha. Thanks.
    (I had replied before I saw your response to others who were asking the same question.)

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    In general, I'd be very reluctant to hold someone at gunpoint. It's not something I've trained for, I have no idea how long police response is going to be, he may have a hidden weapon and every moment I spend holding him is another chance for the BG to get the drop on me, he may have a friend who's trying to sneak up behind me and whack me on the head with a tire iron. In some circumstances I might even go so far as encouraging a BG who's disarmed himself and surrendered to get the hell away from me. Of course, this depends a lot on the circumstances (what the BG did, if anyone's there to help me watch him, how long I think it will take the police to get there, is this in my house or in public, etc).

    All that aside, if I did decide to hold a BG at gunpoint, I definitely wouldn't cover him by pointing my muzzle directly at him. A stressful situation like that, coming down from an adrenaline dump just seems like the perfect recipe for an ND. Remember, you can't claim self defense for an accidental shooting.

  14. #28
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Another answer I would like is to the question, "If I have shot a badguy and he is not dead, but just injured, apart from calling police/ambulance for him, am I obligated to actually touch the blood-drenched scumbag who just tried to hurt/kill me and render first aid?!"

    I'd be pretty pissed off if someone later argued that I should bear legal or financial liability for damage he suffered because I didn't actively help him after I stopped his initial attack.
    I personally am not trained to issue trama 1st aid, Nor do I carry a pair of latex gloves and face sheild around in my back pocket in order to protect myself from any unkown bloodborne pathogens that this BG my have courseing thru his rapidly depleting system. I would render no 1st aid and be grateful that it's not me wondering if I am gonna die before the EMT's get here.

    and to Blackeagle

    Provided the BG is still there and hasn't run. If you can manage to get him into a neutral position such as Kneeling with hands on head or prone spread eagle. You then can gain a bit of safety distance and cover BG at lowready until LEO arrival. This allows you control over situation yet also allows you to go from RED to ORANGE if you will. Remember distance is your friend.

    Thanks
    MikeV
    Last edited by MIKEV; December 7th, 2006 at 09:13 PM.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinsonre View Post
    This is a good point, but what if the BG sees your gun and immediately backs down. I.E. He approaches with a knife, you draw but before you fire he drops the knife "woah man...didn't know you had one of those"...

    Now you have an interesting dilemma on your hands. Technically, you could probably still shoot him and get away with it..society would probably be better off having one less criminal on the streets. Personally, however I would find it difficult within my own conscience to shoot someone who was now unarmed and surrendering. If you turn your back and let him run off there's no telling what, or whom he could come back with for revenge. Maybe the best option is to hold him until the police arrive. It's all just conjecture for me as I've never been in this exact situation.
    Like i said, I think it would be best to act like a crazed maniac so he thinks you are just crazy enough to shoot him if he tries to leave. I absolutely would try to keep him there if the situation was right. If I'm going to spare the BG's life, I want to atleast see him go to jail. But if he decided to run , I'm just out of luck. I'd never turn my back on him..

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by riversdaddy View Post
    The one stateside incident were I held a gun on someone on my property involved a whole lot of lying on my part about what I would do if he tried to run. I used some colorful language to describe what a .223 round would do to his head. Basicly, I behaved like the "unstable criminal" to get my point across, all the while knowing that if he decided to run I would let him do just that. He decided it would be better to lean up against my truck and wait for the police. He left my front yard in cuffs, and the police told me I had every right to do what I did. It's nice living in Arkansas. I didn't know if I'd like it when I was stationed there, but I'm sorta glad I did now.
    I like this idea. Act like you're crazier than he is.......

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