Holding gun on someone - Page 4

Holding gun on someone

This is a discussion on Holding gun on someone within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Your 100% right. As soon as BG hits ground or starts pounding pavement cell phone is speed dialing 911. Cant say enough about being the ...

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Thread: Holding gun on someone

  1. #46
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    Your 100% right. As soon as BG hits ground or starts pounding pavement cell phone is speed dialing 911. Cant say enough about being the first caller.

    MikeV


  2. #47
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEV
    Do not draw your weapon unless you intend to use it! However seeing as the present flows into the future and what caused you to draw your weapon in the first place is now in the past, you always have to continue to modify how to respond.
    I think this expresses it as well as I have ever seen it expressed. I won't draw my weapon unless I believe there is justification for firing it right then and there. But even as I draw my weapon the situation is changing, and so I cannot say with absolute certainty that I WILL fire it. Only that I will be prepared to do so.

    That's one reason why, even though these theoretical discussions are interesting and useful, the answer to the question "would you shoot?" is ALWAYS going to be "it depends." It will always depend on what is happening as the scenario unfolds and there is no way to truly know how I will react or what I will do until the moment arrives.

  3. #48
    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
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    So, there are people in the background and you would not shoot because of that. Why would you draw your gun in the first place if you can't use it?
    When he calls your bluff and charges at you with a knife what do you do then since you can't use your gun?
    Wouldn't it be better to still have the element of surprise and change your angle so no one is in the background before you draw?
    Not all BG think rationally. They may be on drugs or just crazy. The BG may think that you are going to shoot so they will see how many times they can stab you before you can put them down.
    Let's say you call 911 and it takes a while for them to get there. You are holding the BG with your gun and he is in the position you want him in. Who's to say he didn't have a lookout who has been watching the whole thing. Now he has the element of surprise on you.
    You are waiting for the police again. Still gun in hand and he is in postion. You are lucky he has no backup. As people walk by he starts yelling for help because all the people can now see there is "a man with a gun", OMG they all scream.
    Someone who has a CCP and is carrying a concealed gun is one of the people in the crowd.Them not realizing the situation, you now find yourself with a gun pointed at you and someone with the same train of thought as you telling you to drop the gun and he will hold the gun on you until the police show up to sort things out and see who exactly is telling the truth.

    Taking your situation as I would handle it. A BG with a knife wants my money or blood. I assess the situation and see I can't get a good shot off at the moment so I keep my gun concealed until the right time. I start to move to change my angle. No one is in the background now. I draw and fire at the BG until they are no longer a threat. The crowd sees the dead man and the man with a gun. I yell call 911, as I am doing also. The guy had a knife and I had to shoot in self defense, I yell.
    The guy in the crowd with the CCP sees what happened. He heard me yell it was in self defense and feels I am no threat since he can see the knife in the BG hand.
    I'm sorry it happened but if it is my life or his I will made the shot to stop the threat.
    Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.

    John Wayne

  4. #49
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    Maverick.

    I find it curious that in your spin you have a witness who "sees what happens" as you shoot the BG, but you don't afford me the same "them not realizing the situation...."

    You asked for a situation where you would draw but not fire. I gave you one.

    It's obvious to me now that you and I would handle the situation differently. Your way is your way, My way is my way.

    I hope your way works out for you and that your comfortable with the aftermath. I would ask that you would hope the same for me.

    Thanks for the discourse my friend.
    MikeV
    Last edited by MIKEV; December 8th, 2006 at 03:27 PM. Reason: more content

  5. #50
    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
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    Let's now address the man with the bat.

    Here's how it went down. The BG starts beating your car. You got out of the car, draw your gun, and demanded him to stop. Order him to to drop the bat and and get on the ground. He thinks you won't shoot so he charges at you with his bat. You have no choice but to shoot him. He's dead.


    Here is what the DA and jury will have to figure out. Who was the agressor? The BG had a bat but was only beating your car. Which makes the car the victim. What would the jury want you to do first? Maybe find a way to escape then call the police. Did you have a means to escape instead of get out of the car?
    Let's say no.
    The BG now is still beating your car and you get out and draw on him and order him to stop. This now makes the BG the an aggressor toward the car and you the aggressor toward the BG. Bringing deadly force to a non deadly force situation. To the jury it looks like you are willing to take a life to protect your property. Even if he did come at you and you had to shoot out of self defense you are still the one who became the first to show aggression toward another person.
    Witnesses will testify that you pointed the gun at him and caused the altercation toward him first. The BG may be put up to look like a saint who just had a bad day. After all he only had a bat. When he saw you had a gun on him and you were proven to be the aggressor toward him, they could prove the BG was the one acting in self defense since you were first to bring deadly force to him and you were first to be aggressive toward him.
    I wouldn't want to have to prove I was only wanting to hold him there until the police showed up for beating my car.
    Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.

    John Wayne

  6. #51
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    MIKEV ,,,,,,,, well said,,,,,,,,

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Someone that is beating my vehicle with a bat is going to get their chest beat by a few bullets.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  8. #53
    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
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    MIKEV
    I see your point. I was saying that while you were pointing your gun at the BG and waiting, that the people walking by may have been a long ways away when the incident originally went down and now as they come up to it they really don't understand what happened minutes before.
    If I shoot someone the witnesses are instantly going to know what happened.
    As we wait for the police to show up at the crime scene, the CCL guy will walk by minutes later and see there is no threat from me.
    Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.

    John Wayne

  9. #54
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    Maverick

    On this one we agree. If for some reason my car was disabled to the point that I cannot drive away from the situation to safer area and call the police. I am locking all the doors and calling from inside the car. I may even put my weapon on the seat under my right thigh on top of the seat cushion wear it cannot be seen.

    If BG stops beating on metal and starts beating on glass i.e windshield/windows I would seriously think about shooting him at that point, due to the fact that I cannot safely retreat any further and I am now in fear of my life and or greivios bodily harm.

    Thanks
    MikeV

  10. #55
    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
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    MIKEV

    I totally agree on how to handle the BG beating my car.

    It's good to give each other ideas of what to do in situations. I feel I've learned in all this that you can draw your gun and be ready to use it but I would still want to conceal it to have that element of surprise. I never want to be the initial aggressor in a situation.
    I feel I'm too old (40's) and wouldn't feel comfortable to try to hold someone at bay. So I will only use my gun as a last resort.
    Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.

    John Wayne

  11. #56
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    Maverick

    Thank you.

    I am 40y/o as well. Honestly I am hoping LEO response time is under 5mins. After that how knows I might be begging bad guy to run and promising I won't shoot him no matter what I said earlier. LOL

    MikeV

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick7340 View Post
    Let's now address the man with the bat.

    Here's how it went down. The BG starts beating your car. You got out of the car, draw your gun, and demanded him to stop. Order him to to drop the bat and and get on the ground. He thinks you won't shoot so he charges at you with his bat. You have no choice but to shoot him. He's dead.


    Here is what the DA and jury will have to figure out. Who was the agressor? The BG had a bat but was only beating your car. Which makes the car the victim. What would the jury want you to do first? Maybe find a way to escape then call the police. Did you have a means to escape instead of get out of the car?
    Let's say no.
    The BG now is still beating your car and you get out and draw on him and order him to stop. This now makes the BG the an aggressor toward the car and you the aggressor toward the BG. Bringing deadly force to a non deadly force situation. To the jury it looks like you are willing to take a life to protect your property. Even if he did come at you and you had to shoot out of self defense you are still the one who became the first to show aggression toward another person.
    Witnesses will testify that you pointed the gun at him and caused the altercation toward him first. The BG may be put up to look like a saint who just had a bad day. After all he only had a bat. When he saw you had a gun on him and you were proven to be the aggressor toward him, they could prove the BG was the one acting in self defense since you were first to bring deadly force to him and you were first to be aggressive toward him.
    I wouldn't want to have to prove I was only wanting to hold him there until the police showed up for beating my car.
    I dissagree with your analogy. If a man is beating my car with a bat , I dont know if he has intentions of working his way towards me or not. So I'd say he started the aggression. I would absolutely call 911 first. But what if there is no phone reception? Just because I draw on him and order him to stop, does not mean i will shoot him or am obligated to shoot him just because i drew my weapon. He would fully know i have a gun pointed at him. If he chooses to rush me, I'd have to say he knows he's having lead for lunch. As long as its only my car he's threatning , I would'nt shoot. I agree with you , it may go either way in court. But I'm not gonna wait to see if the guy is going for me next before I let him know I am armed..
    As far as the jury expecting me to escape. I live in Kentucky and we have the "stand your ground law". I do not have to retreat..I can legally use lethal force towards anyone that threatens my life in my car, home or anywhere I have the right to be. A baseball bat is a deadly weapon..GOD BLESS KENTUCKY........

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick7340 View Post
    MIKEV
    I see your point. I was saying that while you were pointing your gun at the BG and waiting, that the people walking by may have been a long ways away when the incident originally went down and now as they come up to it they really don't understand what happened minutes before.
    If I shoot someone the witnesses are instantly going to know what happened.
    As we wait for the police to show up at the crime scene, the CCL guy will walk by minutes later and see there is no threat from me.
    This is a good point. People that dont see the incident from the start, dont know what is going on. Could be their word against yours.....

  14. #59
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    but what they will see is someone on a cell phone with 911 dispatch (possibley even on speaker) continously asking "what's the eta of your officers? He was gonna kill me!! tell them to hurry up!!. This dialoge will be repeated every 30sec or so.

    MikeV

  15. #60
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinsonre View Post
    And if he stops threatening but doesn't run? Let's say, for example, that he hits the ground and covers his head.
    I admit I didn't consider that option, along with many others of lesser probability. Whatever other weird thing the BG did, if he ceased threatening me, of course I would not shoot.

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