Holding gun on someone

This is a discussion on Holding gun on someone within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by robere I agree with this. But there is also no gaurantee the BG is going to get on the floor and spread ...

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Thread: Holding gun on someone

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robere View Post
    I agree with this. But there is also no gaurantee the BG is going to get on the floor and spread out either. You can't shoot him because he wont lay down if he's unarmed.
    There is never a way to know if someone is armed or not. Assume: armed. Act as if armed. The instant any movement turns into an attack, stop it cold.

    I agree "if" he does as you say and you can get him on the floor and spread out ...
    To the degree that failure on the part of the BG to comply furthers risk to me, my family or others, he's going to be herded into a very tight/small space ... and remain there. Else, he's still a threat and a deadly danger. If he turns/flees, fine. Every situation's different.

    All of this emphasizes how crucial distance, cover and readiness are when confronting someone. I have not yet had to maintain that degree of focus over a BG being held, but I've watched someone do it (after an attack in a store where, fortunately, the BG saw fit to comply).
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick7340 View Post
    Help me out here. I'm trying to think of a situation where I would need to pull my gun and not shoot and just try to make a citizens arrest by trying to keep the BG there.
    If a crime is happening in front of me and no ones life is in danger why would I need to pull my gun?
    Simple: life-threatening action by BG prompts drawing, at which point the BG immediately ceases actions without shots being fired, followed by being detained.

    Data point (personal): Two BG's jointly attacked me in a dark parking lot; I drew and commanded them to cease the attack; they immediately broke off the attack and disappeared into the shadows. Did not need to actually fire.

    I've witnessed this on a couple of other occasions as well. LEO friends report this far more frequently than needing to actually shoot. Some of the top trainers in the business also have yet to take a life, but have made each of their stops (as LEO's) via the threat/warning of continuation resulting in being shot. The experiences of many shows it's not so uncommon as some think.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; December 9th, 2006 at 10:43 AM.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #63
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    So many scenerios , so many ways it can go. The more i read here , the more i see the importance of training and more training..I greatly appreciate the wealth of information on this site from experienced people..

  5. #64
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    Sort of...

    Quote Originally Posted by robere View Post
    So to throw a bit more into the mix..Maybe you should talk like a crazy person so the BG might think " this guy is crazy enough to shoot me if i run "........??
    keep him guessing. Loud 'shouting commands' voice...the BG is only going to understand 'force', even if it is only verbal...take command verbally...
    You don't give him any choices...

    If I have to pull my gun, I'm going to use it for the slightest increase of aggression...

    The BG has to be quickly convinced that you...Are a man of your word!'

    OMO

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  6. #65
    Senior Member Array Super Trucker's Avatar
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    Don't play cops and robbers. The gun should stay in your holster until you are ready to use (unless you carry a badge). If you are holding somebody at gun point, what will keep the next person from thinking you are the BG, and shooting you in the back off the head.

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
    Don't play cops and robbers.
    Can't imagine what this means. It implies situations don't exist that require the holding of a BG whether or not shots have been fired. Can't always ensure a BG will just flee, lay there passively or die immediately from his wounds. Hence, understanding how to effectively hold a BG at bay is a crucial skill. It's not "playing" with anything. OTOH, it is deadly serious.

    There are legitimate situations that end with a BG not actually getting shot, but instead being held for the arrival of police. There's little to stop some other "good sam" from getting into the fray and making a tragic error. That's why loud, vocal commands are so crucial. That's why it's critical to be seen by witnesses as the GG, to enlist one of the witnesses to be on the watch for inbound LEO's or "good sams", so they can be informed who's who; etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
    If you are holding somebody at gun point, what will keep the next person from thinking you are the BG, and shooting you in the back off the head.
    Situational awareness; where one is positioned, in terms of cover; whether one sees inbound "good sams" or LEO's and can handle them verbally so that the BG is clearly distinguishable from the GG. Hard, yes. Not impossible. And, crucial to get it right.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  8. #67
    Member Array thirtyonebravo's Avatar
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    This may vary from state to state. Not in my current residence, but I believe in Texas - someone is on your property for instance, trying to steal your car (or *anything* for that matter), you are authorized to use deadly force to regain that property (or I would assume detain that individual until the law arrives. Hell, I believe you can even shoot at them attempting to flee too... talk about a deterrent to crime hehe.
    "I've got a shotgun, a rifle, and a four-wheel drive.. a country boy can survive..." - Hank Williams, Jr.

  9. #68
    Senior Member Array gwhall57's Avatar
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    The presentation of a handgun by a potential victim ends anywhere from 500,000 to 2 million "criminal events" a year in this country, depending on whose number-crunching you agree with. In the vast majority of cases I have read about, the BG decides that discretion is the better part of valor and bolts from the scene as soon as his "prey" draws on said BG. And I would be fine with that - the BG taking to his heels and scampering and leaving me and mine alone.

    I really do not want to shoot anyone. I will, if I am forced to defend myself, but I am not looking forward to harming another human being. And I am not an LEO - it's not my job, or my right, to arrest and detain anyone. I guess I am actually hoping that, in just such a situation, the BG runs away.
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  10. #69
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    I don't even touch my gun unless my life or someone elses life is in jeapordy. If he has a knife or gun I am shooting. No questions asked! If I draw my weapon and he turns and runs then I am going to let him run and keep him at gun point untill he is gone. I am not going to try and hold the guy at gunpoint or chase him. IM not a cop and the longer I am next to him the more danger I am in. I would just count my blessings that the gun served as a deterrent and I am still alive and I did not have to pull the trigger.

  11. #70
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    If he runs then the threat is over put your gun away and call police and report incident

  12. #71
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    if im in the car, and someone is beating it with a baseball bat, i can only assume he's doing so to scare me into getting out, so he can then beat ME with the baseball bat, which means my life or serious bodily injury is in jeopardy.

    i yank and shoot, only looking at center body mass. i dont look at the face, i dont see if he's scared, i dont care.

    the guy was the aggressor. he wanted to beat me with a baseball bat. i was in the car. i was in fear for my life or serious bodily injury, and i exercised my right to remove the threat.

    i dont shoot once. i empty magazine/cylinder, reload, then call the authorities. i seek witnesses while on the phone, and cover the (assumably) dead BG. see other threads for what information is shared over phone and with LEO's.

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    It's just like one of those 'Choose your own adventure' childrens books...

    Go left = Let him run and be the best witness you can be.
    Go right = Shoot him in the frontal body (if possible) and report to the police that he moved toward you in a threatening manner.

    ...In the end it comes down to what you can best live with; Telling tale of the one that got away or being star of ones own morality play and potential judicial case on earth and if you believe in heaven.

    If I were in a car I'd start it and drive away, with alacrity, to safety.

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  14. #73
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    I doubt there is a BG out there that can drop a knife faster than I can send 460 grains into his COM so I am not likely to encounter the, "whoa, man. I didn't know you had a guh.........."
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  15. #74
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeephipwr View Post
    What I did is order some restraints from Galls.com, you know the plastic ties. My plan is: if I have to shoot and the BG goes down, or if he surrenders, he is getting "cuffed" for his and my safety.
    Check your local laws regarding citizen arrest powers. In NC, if you are not a sworn officer, you have no powers of arrest. Thus, by binding an individual (even if a crime was committed), you can be sued for wrongful detention, if not cited or arrested for it.

  16. #75
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I'm not sure what the implications of this are.

    If you surprise the knife-wielding badguy with your gun, and he drops the knife and cowers, are you supposed to, what, reholster your gun and make him a glass of iced tea? He's still a dangerous threat by virtue of what he was doing a moment before! What do you mean that deadly force cannot be used to hold him until LEO arrival? We have to put away the gun but hope he stays put without that power being held over him?? That doesn't seem to make sense. Could you please elucidate?
    Could you physically detain the BG with cuffs or wire ties?

    I wouldn't think so but...
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

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