Honestly ill pass and let the pros handle it .
This is a discussion on Not a good situation at all. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Honestly ill pass and let the pros handle it ....
Honestly ill pass and let the pros handle it .
January 19, 2005
Fatal shooting ruled justified
By Rebecca Nolan
A Eugene man was cleared Tuesday in the fatal shooting of a neighbor who threatened him with a gun.
James Michael Winkelman, 48, will not be charged in the Jan. 11 death of Todd Alan Hughes. A Lane County grand jury heard 2 1/2 hours of testimony Tuesday from 10 witnesses and chose not to indict Winkelman.
Reached Tuesday evening, Winkelman said he was relieved at the decision, but was "shaken up" after learning that the gun Hughes pulled on him was unloaded. Police had withheld that information from him pending the grand jury's decision, he said.
"It was bad enough for me in the first place to shoot a human being," Winkelman said. "Now to find out the gun wasn't loaded ... ."
Family and friends of Hughes, 43, were saddened and angered by the grand jury's decision.
"The only thing worse than telling my father that his son was murdered is having to tell him the murderer went free," said Hughes' sister, Sarah Harrington of Cambridge, N.Y. "Todd's gun had no bullets in it. Justice was not served. Do the people of Eugene feel safer with Mr. Winkelman on the street?"
Police and prosecutors have said Winkelman has been cooperative and forthcoming since officers arrived at 2020 W. 13th Ave. about 6 p.m. the night of the shooting.
He has told the same story all along, Lane County District Attorney Doug Harcleroad said.
Winkelman said his daughter saw Hughes attacking a woman on the street. The woman yelled for help and for someone to call police. While the daughter went to find a phone, Winkelman stood guard outside Hughes' home. Hughes tried to walk away. Winkelman told him to stop and wait for police. Hughes kept walking and thrust his hands in his pockets. Winkelman ordered him to take his hands out of his pockets. When Hughes did not, Winkelman pulled out his licensed, concealed handgun - safety on, no finger on the trigger - and pointed it at Hughes. He ordered Hughes to stop.
Hughes turned around and walked back toward his house, still fiddling around in his pockets. Winkelman disengaged the safety and put his finger on the trigger, telling Hughes he was doing so. Hughes then whipped around with a pistol in his hand and pointed it at Winkelman.
Winkelman fired until Hughes fell to the ground. Winkelman remembers firing five times. Prosecutors said he fired six times, and three of the bullets hit Hughes.
Winkelman screamed for someone to call police and waited until officers arrived.
Harcleroad said the shooting of Hughes, though tragic, was a justified act of self-defense because Hughes was about to use unlawful deadly force against Winkelman.
But that doesn't mean prosecutors like what happened, he said.
"Without a doubt it would have been better had (Winkelman) walked away," Harcleroad said. "He could have pointed out the house later when police arrived and let them deal with it."
Hughes' sister agreed.
"He created the situation that ended in Todd's death," Harrington said. "Big deal if he wasn't doing what you told him to do - you're not a cop. There were several moments when this guy could have said, `OK, forget it.' He aggravated the situation."
Don Wood said his friend's death left a void in the Whiteaker neighborhood, where Hughes lived and worked for the past 15 years. Hughes, who had conquered his own addictions for nearly nine years before a recent alcoholic relapse, helped many people get off and stay off drugs, he said. He was active at the Jesco Club and rode with the Clean and Sober Motorcycle Club.
But in recent months, Hughes had been struggling with personal and financial troubles, Wood and others said. The money he had earned from odd jobs and collecting rent for landlords dried up after a drunken driving conviction resulted in the suspension of his license. Unable to drive, he was unable to work, Wood said. The power had been out at 2020 W. 13th Ave. for more than two months.
Hughes was drunk the night of Jan. 11, his girlfriend Janet Bilbrey said. That night his car ran out of gas on the way back from the store where he bought dog food, cookies and orange juice, she said.
He walked toward home, stressed out about money and bills, and encountered Bilbrey in the street. He grabbed her, forced her to the ground, straddled her and tried to get his hands around her neck. They struggled, and when he cocked his arm back to hit her, she kicked him off her and ran away.
She said she went to the Cash King and Amazon Market, and returned home to find her fiance dead on their front porch. They were supposed to be married in June.
"He was a loving, true, beautiful, bright spirit," Bilbrey said. "He loved each and every person he touched. He'll be missed."
Thanks for the update SCott.
I for one do. Law Abiding citizen, versus one not. I will go with the GG everytime. This is like what HotGuns and I were discussing. You save the damsel and then get raked ovre the coals with no gratitude and yes I know he killed (not murdered [unlawful taking of another life] her fiance). So she was cool marrying a drunken scum bag??? Go figure.Originally Posted by Scott
I am not going to wait to find out if the pistol is loaded, not a concern when the business end of a weapon is pointed at me. I hope he and his family do not get sued.Originally Posted by Scott
So the Law Enforcement Community does not want us to intercede at all. Another reason why I have a hands off approach when I am carrying. Not my concern, my only concern is to get home to MY family and MY loved ones. There are those that are paid to put themselves in harms way.Originally Posted by Scott
I completely disagree. He was coming to her aid. This is a no-win situation.Originally Posted by Scott
Originally Posted by Scott
Last edited by APachon; January 25th, 2005 at 01:40 PM.
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live!!!
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
The worst thing in this world, next to anarchy, is government.
Henry Ward Beecher
Same ole stuff.
The guy that got shot was a model citizen.
He was much loved by his family.
He was stressed out.
It wasnt his fault..(never is)
The guy that shot him wasnt a cop...
(But yet he pulled a gun on him)...
"He was a loving, true, beautiful, bright spirit," Bilbrey said. "He loved each and every person he touched. He'll be missed.""
I really like the comment "his gun had no bullets in it" like that matters when you point it at someone.
It just proves the guy was not only a loser but an idiot.
Yeah he was beautful alright, except when he weas drunk, on drugs or beating his girlfriend silly. He was truly an asset to society.
The people that put up with this crap are as quilty of stupidity as the one that does the deed...
he was not holding someone at gunpoint, he asked him to stay put. He did not draw his weapon until the other man reached into his pocket for his.
Also, he was not looking for trouble, he was told that the rape was IN PROGRESS. You have a moral duty as a human being to respond to a cry for help from someone who is being raped. Incedentally, by the time he got there the crime had been comitted. Finding a suspicious person he made the very reasonable request that he stay put.
Let me repeat, he did not draw his gun until he felt threatened. He did not fire his gun until there was an imminent risk of death or great bodily harm.
a few things here, what ever happend to good samaritan laws? if your giving aide to the best of your ability and training you are not lible. or does that only apply to redering cpr and first aide? in my book someone is getting hurt and you have the ablity to stop it and you dont you are ignoring your civic duty. what if your wife was being raped (god forbid) you would want someone out there with the power to stop it police or not to stop it RIGHT NOW. right? if she were to sue you could you counter sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress for screaming that she was being raped in the street and maybe she should be charged and not you!!!! yuck this one burns me up
Most good samaritan laws only protect you for first aid and only when rendering aid within the bounds of your training. So if you have a valid CPR card and you are doing CPR, puncture the guy's lung and he dies, you are not liable civilially. If you however do a tracheotomy like you saw on TV with a pocket knife and a pen tube, you are liable. Unless of course you were trained in doing the procedure.Originally Posted by isaiah357
When it comes to self-defense and the use of deadly force to protect others there is no good samaritan defense. More states are inacting laws to protect people from civil liability if it is found that they acted within the law. This is a good thing in my opinion and hopefully all states that issue permits will enact this type of legislation eliminating the huge potential financial penalty for defending yourself.
Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.
Hotguns!Originally Posted by HotGuns
Unfortunately those who think like yourself are dwindling in numbers...rapidly. I know I'm no police officer and I'm not out looking for trouble, nor am I "my brother's keeper", but I'd be darn sure I wouldn't we walking on by and waiting for the police to arrive. It's just not in my nature.
Thankyou for that Sir.It's just not in my nature.
Fortunatley there are others that frequent this forum that feel the same way as you and I. I guess that is why I like this place and keep coming back....
i would love to say i would act the way he did.
and i might also.
would i regret it for the next few months while his family sang his praises...definitely! i'd say to myself "why didn't i mind my own dam# business and let her get her a$$ beat if she loved him so much"
would i feel better about shooting him? no!
again he was a model citizen ...drunk, druggy, wife-beater, etc and she loved him soooo much and me, mr honest joe chl holder, not-a-cop, killed the father of her 3 illigitimate children.
its a definite NO WIN situation that probably emotionally ruined him for a while and i almost guarantee that this ain't over. his beat up wife/girlfriend or family WILL sue him...may win, and now what did he gain? she loved him and now misses him and you killed him.
he can look forward to reliving this for the next 2 years in court.
it definitely is a bad situation and i have heard it here over and over "if it ain't you or yours, be a good witness".
i applaud him for his foretitude (i question his judgement in "the big picture) but i would NEVER trade places with him in a million years!
This is mine. That is yours.
Lets keep it that way.
Looking at the situation as it was explained on here, I would have done some things the same, others I would have done very differently. I would have went to the aide of the woman in question. I would have removed her from where ever she was and made sure that she was safe and secure until the Police and other aide were to arrive. I would not have tried to apprehend the boy friend or whatever unless he were to try to hurt the girl. I would have waited and let the polce taken care of catching the guy. Now if he tried to hurt the girl again then I would have taken whatever steps necessary to protect her and myself, but protecting her would have been my main objective. In my mind the need for the samaritan to search out and apprehend the boyfriend was just not there. I applaud the guys willingness to help, but in the long run he could have gotten himself hurt and left the girl with no one to protect her had the attacker decided to go back.
There are only 2 people I trust in this world and you ain't one of'em!
Disregarding what happened and whether or not the guy who responded was right or wrong, the biggest thing he did wrong was talk to the press.
If the DA should decide to press charges, everything he told the reporter could and probably will come into play during trial. Seems the best course of action would be to refer the reporter to the responsible LE Agency for any statements about the situation.
"His 13-year-old daughter ran up to him out of breath and hysterical. She said a man with long red hair was raping a woman on the sidewalk at the corner of West 13th Avenue and Garfield Street. She said the woman was screaming for help and for someone to call the police. She said she saw the man run into the house at 2020 W. 13th Ave. "
This guy did not go to stop a rape, as was quoted above, the assault had ended and the BG ran into his house before the daughter even told him about it.
So what I'm assuming here is either that the guy went to check on the victim and she was gone, and went to see if she was around the house his daughter saw the BG run into. Or, he just went straight to the house thinking he was gonna make sure the BG did'nt get away.
Hopefully it was the first, But I think the guy would've been smarter to just hang back and observe where the BG went and inform the police when they got there. This guy instigated a confrontation and ended up shooting a guy on his own front porch.
Here's some food for thought: "You look out your front window and some guy is standing outside your front gate, you walk out the back to circle around and see what he's doing. He sees you walk out the back and immediately gives chase saying something about "the cops are coming". You put your hand on the butt of your pocket pistol since this guy is coming after you and you don't know his intentions. at which point he immediately draws a handgun. You try to duck back in your house as you draw your weapon, at which point the guy shoots you. Who's the BG now?
Obviously, this was not the situation. But what if Captain America here got the wrong house? Or what if that the supposed victim really was a robber who yelled out when her victim got the upper hand? Lady tries to hold up a guy with a knife, he is fortunate enough to overpower her and pin her down, then she yells rape. He ran to his house to call the police, next thing he knows there's a guy standing outside his door, possibly a partner of his attempted mugger.
My point is, that this guy thrust himself into an unknown situation and ended up having to shoot somebody that he could've avoided. He could've easily found himself to be on the wrong side of the Law. It turns out that he wasn't this time, but I hope he's more cautious if another similar situation arises.