If you were the bad guy

If you were the bad guy

This is a discussion on If you were the bad guy within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was not sure where to put this so please feel free to move it wherever. Also if it violates forum rules regarding criminal behavior ...

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Thread: If you were the bad guy

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    If you were the bad guy

    I was not sure where to put this so please feel free to move it wherever. Also if it violates forum rules regarding criminal behavior please delete but that is not my intention.

    It is also not my intention to put down, criticize, or in anyway shape or form knock OC. I fully support Responsible Open Carry as long as it is legal in your state to do so.

    There have been dozens of thread and pages of discussion regarding OC and whether it gives a tactical advantage, it is a deterrent, not a deterrent, is CC better and so on which many of the posts state that the mere sight of or the fact you are carrying keeps the bad guys away.

    My job entails identifying, preventing and actively eliminating threats to the U.S. Military and DoD contractors that I am responsible for. So a lot of my time is thinking like the bad guy so to speak, which got me to thinking, I know that is dangerous.

    How does the bad guy/criminal element perceive the person who is OC'ing?

    I have stated many times before if the mere sight of a holstered firearm scares the bad guy into going somewhere else he was not much of a bad guy to begin with. Remember we are all judged, in pretty much every aspect of life, by the lowest common denominator be it OC, CC, the lady in the Moo Moo being interviewed after a tornado hit her trailer or the behavior of our children.

    We have all seen the videos, articles and pictures of "that guy" with a magnum blaster, in a nylon holster pulling his pants down walking through a store proclaiming how he is exercising his right and how he is protecting himself and the sheep of this world. (How I hate the sheep/sheepdog phrases) but how does the bad guy, a real bad guy see him? How do they see any of those who OC?

    Let's take a look at the bad guys we may encounter.

    The average street punk. Young 16-25, generally in better physical shape than some professional athletes and never goes to the gym. Looking for an easy mark, snatching a purse, grabbing a wallet or shopping bag, breaking into cars or a burglary or two under his belt. Has many physical confrontations under his belt and can hold his own with the best of them in a street fight. A person who will take advantage of the weak or unprepared.

    The ex con. Little older, maybe, but a lot smarter. Raised up in the system, has spent time in the big house. May or may not have an addiction problem he is supporting. Chooses his crimes and victims a little better, with age comes intellect. He will plan what he is going to do and think of such things as an escape route, concealing evidence, getting rid of stolen goods and so on. May already have a history of violent crimes. Still in good shape from time spent inside. He does not have an issue with taking on a harder target.

    Lastly the person who we all hope we never encounter, the real bad guy. Has a long history of violence. He will prey on anyone, anytime. If he wants what you have he will take it or die trying. Has no remorse, feelings or regret. If he injures or kills someone while committing a crime, who cares, he is alive and kicking. Has more "training" than you think, can handle a firearm, knife or whatever else damn well. He has been fighting all his life and knows how to use his hands.



    We as law abiding citizens probably have not been in an all out fist fight since high school. Firearms were purchased, permit obtained, maybe had training or most likely not. Hit the range a couple of times, shoot "ok" but it has been awhile and will do better next time. The dollar store pants belt and $6.00 holster from cheaper than dirt work just fine for you, no need to get better equipment, "I have a gun, no one would mess with me".

    Back goes the gun into the belt holster and off we go into the world. We drive around, go out to eat, shop in a store with our weapon holstered thinking "Yep I am armed so therefore I am safe" mentality completely oblivious to the "bad guys" around us. You stand in line at the Quicky Mart with both hands full, flirting with the woman/man in front of you thinking about the upcoming weekend completely oblivious to what is around you all the while the man behind you is thinking how easy it would be to simply reach out and grab that shiny thing on your belt or punch you in the back of the head, take your gun, rob the store and rape the woman you are flirting with.

    Keep in mind the prison system, no matter what the state, is the mental health system. In my home state of Arkansas except for private facilities there is no state hospital, it has been closed for years well guess where a lot of these folks end up? It is easy to say that no sane man would attempt to grab a gun which is true, who say's they are sane. I hate to say it but there are hundreds of mental health patients with extremely violent history's we pass everyday on the street who literally do not know right from wrong and simply act on impulse.

    Yep I know this is all situational awareness stuff but we all have to go farther, we have got to think like they do. I can already hear the wheels turning on some. Not gonna live in fear and paranoia, the chances of having to use my gun are slim to none and so on. If that is your mentality then why carry at all?

    I used OC as an example here but it fits for every one of us. Look around spend 30 minutes on line and google gang tattoo's, prison tats and so on. If your state has a website that lists violent offenders in your area go look at it. For god sakes get gear that works, fits and secures your firearm when you carry them and train with it as you carry it.

    No matter what you are in such a hurry for stop, look and assess the area around you before you get out at the local stop and rob. If at all possible never, ever carry anything in your gun hand and if it is make it something you can throw to distract in the event of a situation. Instead of standing back to front in a line step out slightly and face the line look at who is around you and what is around you.

    If you want to OC a rifle slung across your back and go to McDonald's to promote the 2A on your behalf, not mine, more power to you but realize you better be able to either protect your weapon from being taken or be able to employ it before it is taken and I can almost bet most can do neither.

    When you get up in the morning and put on your firearm start thinking like they do. What image do I present? How would I take away my firearm if I was one of them? If with others how easy would it be to take away their gun? Are they even paying attention to what is around them? I remember one photo that went around a gent OC'ing in line at the store and the man behind him took a picture on his cellphone with his finger touching the gun butt. If this guy would have had bad intentions he had the perfect victim.

    This forum is dedicated to the carrying of firearms for personal defense, among other topics. Members run the range from the unemployed to pilots, different states and countries but we all have a common bond, staying alive. Take the time to think like they do if only for a few minutes a day, prepare for that one guy who does not care if you shoot once a week or once a year he wants what you have and will do whatever it takes to get it.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013


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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Hey Tacman!

    Nicely worded.....except one thing: Except for anecdotal data there is no proof that OC'ing is bad for you. I do agree OCing an AR is just for show and not good for defense because it is not practical in most SD situations.

    As far as "not wanting to meet that reaaly bag guy". OC or not, you know as well as I from our experience that anyone can be taken out by a a deterined BG. Heck, we train with our own folks who are the best in the world and we beat each other all the time!

    Anyway, like ya said, individuals do what they want. It is really thier lives at risk. Heck, folks tell e I shouldn't jup out of airplanes also...but do I listen LO
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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    Hey Suntzu.

    Not bashing OC at all or saying it is bad for you, quite the contrary. If you OC you simply have to take more precautions and be more aware simply because your weapon is exposed.

    You are right an amateur can tattoo a professional at anytime got to be prepared for both.
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    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    I never Flirted with the guy in front of me at the store

    With all due respect you described life in general , this would still happen armed (oc & cc ) or unarmed , or with a can of wasp spray you could apply it to any tool .
    To be safe we all need to pay attention to our surroundings .
    Last edited by welder516; January 3rd, 2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason: spell
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    I won't get involved in the OC/CC thing here, but just wanted to disagree slightly with the depiction of the ex con being "a lot smarter". In my years as a LEO I saw a lot of ex cons do a lot of very dumb things. For example, there was this one true BG who had been in the New Mexico State Pen for stabbing a guy and trying to stab a cop. When he got out on parole, it took him all of one week to be arrested again. This time it was for shoplifting a sweater for his girlfriend, even though he had enough money to pay for it. Of course this relatively minor crime was a parole violation, so it put him right back in prison. And of course, he added resisting arrest and assault on a police officer to the charges. I saw this sort of thing over and over - a supposedly street-smart, prison-wise ex con doing something incredibly dumb. I have three possible explanations:

    First, they think they are now master criminals, having learned from the best while they were incarcerated. What doesn't seem to occur to them is that "the best" they have learned from aren't really that sharp or they wouldn't have been caught themselves - usually multiple times.

    Second, some want to get caught. They feel at home in the prison culture and don't really know how to get along on the outside. When I taught a GED program at a federal prison, we frequently had someone in a work release program "escape". About six months before their scheduled release date, they would start living at a halfway house outside the prison walls and working at a community job during the day. This program was to help them transition to the outside world and provide them with a decent job. I think it truly helped a lot of people. However, every week or so, someone who was only one or two days away from getting out wouldn't show up at the halfway house. The police would almost always find them sitting at the local bus station, just waiting to be picked up. They knew that the escape would violate parole and add a few years to their sentence. In prison, they had "three hots and a cot" guaranteed. They just weren't ready for the outside world.

    Third, some are so deep in the criminal culture that they see making an honest living as something weak and undesirable, so they continue to make choices that get them in trouble and they continue to blame everybody else.

    I apologize for hijacking the thread, but it just got me thinking about the "old days" and criminals I have known.
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    Welder quite right but it is even more important for those who decide to carry.

    Nutrodoc. Maybe I should have used the word experienced instead. Some yes do stupid things right away and get caught but there are those that not only have learned from their previous mistakes, not in a good way, and are more cautious in what they do. You didn't hijack at all. I to have spent many years dealing with cons and wannabe cons and it never ceases to amaze me what they will do but that also goes to reinforce my point.
    Grabbing a visible weapon or any other really stupid thing to do is entirely within their mental boundries and many would act without hesitation if it accomplished their goal at the time.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I would look and observe the person after I saw his gun. That's what would give me my decision on whether or not to make him a victim
    I mean the truth is, there are a lot of people who are like this; caution some language.
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    I think the truly dangerous bad guys are gang members and psychos. Gangbangers are more apt to hurt/kill you because they have something to prove, to rise up in their gang they need to impress their peers. Psychos are self explanatory, they lack the normal mental restraints and judgment capacity. The rest of the criminals tend to do it out of opportunity, so they will pick the weakest target and flee at the first sign of trouble.

    The first category of bad guys aren't deterred by OC, they would probably see it as a challenge, or an opportunity to grab your shiny gun. The rest of them will move on to find less riskier targets.

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    Hey Tacman

    Absoloutly awsome post.

    Long long overdue post.

    I've known a few really bad guys. and a few bad gals as well. Just because a person is a criminal dont mean they are stupid. It dont even mean they are lazy. My experience is that most criminals dont want anything to do with guns. Those that do use firearms can be extremely dangerous.
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    I think what you're having is a heightened sensitivity to a particular issue. You see possibilities that don't seem apparent to others. But, right now we do not suffer through very dangerous days. Most of the time these things, OC-ers having their guns hijacked, for example, aren't happening.

    The key is to stay out of 'high chaos' situations. To take evasive action, even to the point of leaving your shopping cart in the store, yes even if you've paid for it, if you sense imminent danger. Turn around and go the other way to avoid road raging.

    Most OC-ers do wear retention holsters and yes it is impossible to have 360 vision. I do wonder about the inherent dangers of having an exposed firearm, but in general we do not hear of many bad results except from LEOs who like to mess with them.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Kindly tell me if what I am saying is wrong but I have always felt that the states where OC is allowed are states where, historically, carrying a firearm OC was always an accepted method of carrying a firearm. It was not put into the state legislation because a study or stats showed convincing facts that OC most definitely made for better self defense. It was always going on in that state just as a work belt with a hammer or a drill was hanging there out in the open. Historically it was a tool---not only for self defense from others but self defense from critters "out in wild".
    As far as OC vs CC, I would think that "advertising" my firearm is not helping me except of course for the obvious ease of getting to the firearm, which is very real. The crazies out there are not just going to go the other way in many cases; in fact, this OC advertisement gives them the opportunity to "adjust" their confrontation and may actually give them more incentive---"not only do I get his money, but I get a nice firearm in the process".
    Just saying. Interested in any replies to my first point about the historical aspects of OC in particular states and how it relates to that state never thinking about NOT having an OC option.

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    Distinguished Member Array RightsEroding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Grabbing a visible weapon or any other really stupid thing to do is entirely within their mental boundries and many would act without hesitation if it accomplished their goal at the time.
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    Senior Member Array elmacgyver0's Avatar
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    Not a fan of OC but have not heard of a lot of problems with it. Uniformed police OC carry all the time, of course they do have jedi like skills the average citizen could hope never hope to master.

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    VIP Member Array Kennydale's Avatar
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    I would support OC here in Texas. I doubt i would ever do it. I do support that Ranger dad on a country hike with son, that was carry his AR. I also do think if I was at a local coffee bar or fast food place, and you came in with an AR slung on your back. You bet i am going to eyeball you closely, just to make sure your not foaming at the mouth or anything like that. It's human nature.
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    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmacgyver0 View Post
    Not a fan of OC but have not heard of a lot of problems with it. Uniformed police OC carry all the time, of course they do have jedi like skills the average citizen could hope never hope to master.
    Don't know about the Jedi-like skills, but they do have brothers in arms who are willing to go to the distance for them. Would that we average citizens could say the same.

    I think Tacman makes some very good points that are worth remembering from time-to-time. Heck, you've all made good points. You never know who you are going to run into, what their level of training, or how far they are willing to go.

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