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Stranger Danger in my driveway

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#1 ·
I have been reading this forum for awhile but finally registered today so I could share the incident below.

Had an interesting thing happen today. I was in my front yard with my young daughter my son was playing basketball in the driveway. We live in a small semi-rural area, so I know which cars are from the neighborhood an which aren't. Well a car I don't know comes around the corner and pulls into my driveway. At this point I pickup my daughter and start walking towards the driveway. There are two guys in their sixties that get out of the car. I am still no overly alarmed but hand is on the grip of my XDs. I call out them and say "how can I help you?".

This is where it gets weird they immediately start trying to talk to my son instead of me and are walking toward him. At this point I draw tell them to not take another step admittedly using language not suitable for the forum. They stop. I call my son to me. He runs over to me I have him take his sister inside.

I told them it was time to leave. They kept saying something about being from some church. I had to tell them four or five times to leave. It wasn't until I pulled out my phone that they left. The sheriffs deputy that came out said he thought they were from a local church that does go door to door. He took the description and is going to check with the church and let me know.

A few observations I had we're one practicing my draw has help because if I had to think about it the time to clear leather may have been too long. I was also amazed at how slow things seemed. In what w actually just a few seconds I debated send the kids in or to the neighbors, where should I be, which one do I keep in my sights, at what point do I pull the trigger. My mind was racing for sure.

I guess it just shows why carrying at home makes sense. I will update when I hear back from the Sheriffs dept.
 
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#112 ·
I think you pulled your gun too soon. It's not the answer to all uncomfortable situations, even on your own property.
From the basic description of the scenario, I think you drew too soon, as well. But then, it depends on the totality of circumstances, and I'm sure there were little indicators you were experiencing that you haven't fully described. It could EASILY have been high time to draw, if the details were just a tad more "strange" or threatening.

Basic situation: two unknown people, on your property in a rural area where it's rare to have unknown visitors, moving/talking in concert, ignoring you but speaking to your kids, getting closer and closer ...

Myself, given only the details you've provided, I would very likely have visibly swept my covering garment aside and gone hands-on the butt of the gun, but don't think I would have drawn. Certainly, command voice is justifiable. Certainly, demanding they stay put and keep their distance is justifiable. Certainly, remaining highly circumspect about motives and the threat of the shrinking proximity and their splitting up and ignoring you is worthwhile.

Drawing down on them, though? No nefarious moves on their part, beyond coming toward you and ignoring you. No outright movement of hands toward pockets. No outright threats. Agreed, drawing at that point isn't justifiable to a "reasonable man" (per the legal standard), I'd say. Hard to get 51% of your peers to agree with that, IOW. Risky, legally speaking. Far better to await some clearer indicators, though that would obviously be at the risk of increased danger. But then, that's the point: we are upstanding, and it's incumbent on us to remain so ... in spite of the risks.


I think you did fine, but I think you drew far too soon. Rethink the scenario, but vary a number of indicators until it's clearly threatening. See if you can live with shifting your "cutover" point a bit, toward the more clearly lawful. I think you'll find you can accept that. Less risky for everyone, all the way around, and it needn't necessarily put you in any greater danger. It'll just put a bit more premium on the value of retaining distance, of using command voice earlier, of shuttling the kids off to safety earlier, of having clearer/earlier warning of arrivals (if on a winding/longer drive), etc.
 
#113 ·
Not odd to me at all...... older people being friendly and showing a kid they have nothing to fear from them... is normal in my age and time. You are obviously a different generation.... and I'm sure they didn't feel it was a problem, with you standing right there. I think you over-reacted. Telling him to go inside and making it clear they need to address you, and should have from the get go , was all good. Being cautious is not a bad thing at all ..... but don't draw unless there is a real threat.

Statute 21-3408: Assault. Assault is intentionally placing another person in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily harm.
Assault is a class C person misdemeanor.

Statute 21-3410: Aggravated assault. Aggravated assault is an assault, as defined in K.S.A. 21-3408 and amendments thereto, committed:

(a) With a deadly weapon;

(b) while disguised in any manner designed to conceal identity; or

(c) with intent to commit any felony.
 
#114 ·
^ This.

Could easily have been nothing. Likely, was nothing. Definitely keep at distance, definitely ask firmly what they want and are doing there. Definitely ratchet up the demands/commands once they begin exhibiting things like ignoring you, speaking to the children strangely, continuing to advance. At some point, it's going to hit the crossover point where it behooves you to read the situation for what it's manifestly becoming. But, as EagleKS and others point out, the statutes can be pretty demanding for situations that aren't clearly unlawful, putting us at odds with the statues if we jump the gun. Far better to get it right.

Might be a good opportunity to work with the kids and the rest of the family on handling situations with strange arrivals. In future, if the kids are young it might well be better to have them simply know to head off toward a safer spot, to ensure you are well aware of the new arrivals, to be prepared to deal with things if it blows sideways (ie, calling 911, calling other family, locking the doors, whatever).
 
#123 ·
Maybe so, but we all know that reality is stranger than fiction.

The few words that the OP provided in his story probably pales in comparison to all the details that each of the parties [father, daughter, son, old guy #1, old guy #2, deputy] could provide to give us a better chain of events and intentions of each.

There's probably an online church forum somewhere, where an OP is talking about visiting a North Carolina house, chatting with a kid in the driveway before walking up to the house to spread the word, and some crazy guy running and screaming coming towards them with what, as he got closer, looked like a gun and them taking off in fear for their lives.
 
#119 ·
Visibly carrying might well have avoided the whole encounter. Funny how that works. :yup:
 
#120 ·
I didn't read all eight previous pages, but here's a point to consider.

Remember about a year or two ago in Central Cali authorities discovered that woman who had been abducted as a child, like 18 years before - right in front of her father in Lake Tahoe. And had been living in plain sight nearly the whole time with the kidnapper. I forgot the names, sorry.

I too think the OP pulled a bit too soon, but I'll bet the kidnapped girls father wished he'd had a gun 20 years ago when his kid was stolen.
 
#122 ·
I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the OP. No time to think and dissect everything as we can here. Two strangers show up on your property and seem more interested in your child than you? Then they ignore your verbal concerns as they continue to approach not you, but your babys? What would be going through my mind is the possibility that they may be trying to get close enough to snatch my kid up and hold a pocket knife to his/her throat. Things like this can and do happen as parents watch in shock and disbelief. Personally, I probably would have cleared my cover garment and had my hand on the gun butt as I gave it one last nasty ass "back the **** up now" request. My kid would be sleeping safe in her bed that night...even if daddy got a visit from the police.
 
#124 ·
I havent read all the posts but did until I found out OP was hundred feet away with another child to protect and the old dues were 30 feet from a tyke ignoring the OP and going to his son instead of him. My own kids were taught by the time they could toddle that if mom or i yelled come here they were to beat feet directly to us. And would.

But figuring the OPs son may not be that way, in his place I would not have taken a chance on someone that close to my child and advancing against my warnings while I was 100 feet away of them simply snatching him up and fleeing.

Once they have him, what are you going to do? You likely cant shoot for fear of hitting your child.

When my kids were at home if I didnt know you, on my place, other than a quick Hello in their direction you had better be talking to me and approaching me. An adult has no business moving to a child like that while being told not to by the parent.

OP I dont think you drew early. Everyone here will go on about 21 feet not being time to stop a knife attack if suddenly charged. Well, that doesnt change for suddenly rushing to snatch a tyke. Id get cut to ribbons before Id take a chance on one of my kids being snatched. JMO

Edited to add: State laws are different but attempting to simply remove a person from their home even an adult against their will is legal grounds to use lethal force to stop that attempt.

Drawing on two people that close to a child ignoring shouted warnings not to come closer to said child in the childs yard, when the parent is to far to physically do anything isnt responding to soon. Drawing is not initiating lethal force, pulling the trigger is.

The OP I think passes the reasonable person standard for drawing on a reasonably perceived threat to his child going by his limited description and distances he provides. The threat stood down. He did not fire. No lethal force used, threat nullified. Child safe. Good outcome.

Wait longer as some are saying equal chance child search going on right now.
 
#125 ·
Edited to add: State laws are different but attempting to simply remove a person from their home even an adult against their will is legal grounds to use lethal force to stop that attempt.

Drawing on two people that close to a child ignoring shouted warnings not to come closer to said child in the childs yard, when the parent is to far to physically do anything isnt responding to soon. Drawing is not initiating lethal force, pulling the trigger is.

The OP I think passes the reasonable person standard for drawing on a reasonably perceived threat to his child going by his limited description and distances he provides. The threat stood down. He did not fire. No lethal force used, threat nullified. Child safe. Good outcome.
Agreed, that nobody knows the situation's details and little indicators as the OP does, since he was there.

State laws do vary, of course, and in many states the mere accusation of "he pulled a gun on me!" short of outright brutal physical assault equates (legally) to aggravated assault charges. Many states don't even distinguish between the intention to use lethal force if required (drawing or nearly so) and the actual act of using lethal force (aiming, firing). Sad in the extreme, but true.

But the fact is, in states with the "reasonable man" standard, it IS up to each of us to judge where that crossover point is, where it becomes quite clear that something ugly is amiss, that a forcible felony is in progress and there aren't many options for thwarting it. Like you, I'll be damned (jailed, and whatever else) before I'll see a child of mine successfully snatched while I'm still breathing. I, too, would have gone hands on the weapon at the point I judged the situation being every bit what it appeared; and I'd have drawn the moment I fully believed they got near enough my children to have the least chance of a grab.

OP: time to get the children into the game of security planning, helping them to understand they can really help matters if they're helping matters ... ie, via heading to a safer zone, giving you a heads-up when it's a stranger, staying out of the way, going for help, grabbing the spare gun, calling the cavalry, ...
 
#129 ·
One last and I stop this one now that I finally made it through all the posts.
The threat of an abduction to a reasonable person began when the 2 men did not stop advancing on the child when yelled at to do so and that close to the child.
By OPs distances given no nobody was going to cover the distance he would have had to in time to stop an abduction if that was what was planned. Verbal commands are useless. They had already ignored those. I like 5 yrs being that old and my hearing is not great but i can hear yelling at 200 feet easy enough. The odds both men are deaf? Really want to play that game with your child possibly on the line?

There simply is reasonable belief here that a child abduction is being attempted. Not to the point of shooting, but drawing yes. They are within the magical distance or a few feet of it where most here claim a gun is practically useless if its not already drawn to halt a charge; That distance changes because the charge is to grab a child instead of knife a LEO??? No.

Wasting time calling 911 first iron clad guarantees a successful abduction in this case with what OP posted if that was the intent.

OP reacted as he should to 2 men on his property advancing on his small child despite warnings to stop. One cannot leave their childs life or safety dangling on the end of fear of legal wranglings.

Could have been innocent, could not have been, if it was no harm was done. If it wasnt innocent then the OP likely has his son at home with him now because he reacted as he darn well should have.
 
#131 ·
Some thoughts:

1. The situation as the OP describes it does not appear to justify either the use or the threat of deadly force. The key there is as the OP describes it. A lot of cops have gotten into trouble over use of force incidents because they and/or other responding officers failed to document properly what actually instigated the incident. As the OP describes it, I cannot imagine there is a place in the United States where he would not have been charged if he had fired, and there are plenty of places where he would have been charged even if he hadn't - assuming only what the OP posted happened and nothing else. From a legal standpoint, you may well have been justified in your use of force, but you haven't justified it based on what you said in the OP. We all should take that as a reminder that not only must we be legally justified in our use of force, we have to be able to explain what justified that force.

Obviously that would be totally different if one of the men had attempted to physically interact with the OP's child or attempted to force him into the car. But the OP says they did nothing other than talk to him.

2. Much ado is being made about how the two men "ignored" the OP's verbal commands, which I think rests on the assumption that they were in fact ignoring the OP. The OP states that he was "several hundred feet" away from the men. I don't always hear my wife when she's right next to me, and the reverse is also true (even though she'll never admit it, according to her this is a one-sided problem). It is entirely possible they didn't hear him, or if they did, that they didn't understand what he was saying, or if they did understand what he was saying, that they simply froze in confusion at the fact that someone was yelling at them.

This would totally change if one of the two men had, for example, flipped the OP the bird and told him to **** off. But the OP said nothing about any actions that indicated the two men were aware of him at first. By the time the two men were clearly aware of him, the OP was already swearing at them and holding a gun.

3. Some posters are taking what the OP said about the two men ignoring his drawn gun as an indication of criminal history and familiarity with facing down an armed man. That's just baseless conjecture. The XDs is a very small gun. If he had drawn on them from two hundred feet away, they may have easily had no idea what he was holding.

From a tactical perspective, I think this was a bad idea. I know I can't reliably hit under stress at 65 yards with a subcompact .45 ACP, and I am certainly not going to try with my child in the target area. If you thought you needed to draw, I think a better approach would have been to close the distance and move at whatever angle would allow you to come up with a shooting position minimizing the risk to the child.

4. Something else not mentioned- how old is your son? He was playing basketball in the driveway, so I am guessing not 18 months. You were extremely concerned, so I am guessing not 25. I would be much more concerned (although, to be clear, still not to the level of committing what in my state is Assault in the Second Degree) if he were two than if he were 20, or even if he were 12. But the OP doesn't say, so we don't know.

5. I agree that the behavior of the two men would have made me angry and suspicious, and I would be immediately in Mr. Cooper's Orange level of awareness, but there is no justification for pointing a firearm at someone because of your vague suspicions of what might happen in a situation that has many entirely innocent explanations.

6. Some posters are saying that drawing your gun and aiming it at the two men was justified because of the threat to the OP's son. I don't see that anyone has explained what threat was present. They could have been attempting to kidnap him? OK, but what evidence do you have that was the case?

To head off the trolls, yes, I am adopted (would you like to make something of that?), and yes, I have small children (Son is two, daughter is due in May).
 
#133 ·
5. I agree that the behavior of the two men would have made me angry and suspicious, and I would be immediately in Mr. Cooper's Orange level of awareness, but there is no justification for pointing a firearm at someone because of your vague suspicions of what might happen in a situation that has many entirely innocent explanations.
Exactly.

Depends on the situation's details, and changing one or two of the details at the scene can change it from befuddling and mildly alarming to outright threatening. Hard to be that at "hundreds" of feet (think: AOJ). Hard to be that without making moves toward the children or appearing to go for a weapon to back up the behaviors. Of course, those of us who've been in situations can attest that often the indicators change in an instant.
 
#132 ·
Same exact situation for me, i would draw my gun, maybe not point at them, but let them know its time to stop advancing.. Once someone gets their hands on ur kids its too late to draw.. I will do what i think is best at the time, worry about jail time later.. Better to error on the safe side than to chance never seeing ur kid again.. This is just my paranoid, self centered, cant wait to shoot someone attitude..
 
#145 ·
... but thinking it through and getting various viewpoints from other reasonable people (peers who'd very likely be some of those on any jury) can be invaluable to viewing it from another perspective and considering things not obvious in the situation.

I wouldn't call much of what's been said advice. I'd call it suggestions to evaluate this or that aspect that might not have been considered. It'll come down to the statutes and the "reasonable man" standard mostly, not what any of us here say. You're right on that score.
 
#143 ·
Maybe I've just lived a sheltered life but, down here in the Rural and some of the semi-Rural South things seem a might different. Here, if you have no legitimate business to go onto someone's property, you don't! Otherwise, you are almost guaranteed to meet the business end of a gun. Down here it's not considered commonplace but, commonsense! And, if the Police are called, one of their first questions is: "Boy, whatcha doin on this man's property?". Or: "If you ain't got no legitimate business here then, you ain't got no business being here! That is Trespassing. You need to leave, now! And, you'd best be real thankful that man didn't shoot you!".
Personally, I've gone up to rural homes to ask permission to fish. I didn't mess with anything in the yard, try to get friendly with the kids or, pet the dog. 8 times out of 10, I was met with gun in-hand. The other 2 times, I knew there was a gun at-hand. If I was refused permission, I thanked the man for his time, apologized for any bother and, I immediately left the property. If I was given permission, I'd always return with part of my catch and a big Thank You!
 
#146 ·
I haven't read through all of the comments so pardon me if this is already said. From the info we have from the OP, a charge for brandishing could definitely be issued. It is not trespassing simply pulling into a driveway and getting out to ask a question unless there are no trespassing signs posted.

The OP used lethal force. Ask yourselves a question. Would it have been justified if the OP pulled the trigger? If not, then it is not justified to use lethal force pulling a gun on someone. All three of the criteria were not there. Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy. Asking a question would not be jeopardy. This would be a good way to get some jail time or at least a misdemeanor and lose your CCW.
 
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#150 ·
The OP used lethal force.
OP threatened to use lethal force.

Depends on the state whether the one is criminalized like the other, if done unjustifiably and unreasonably.
 
#152 ·
I was told a long time ago that young guys will talk themselves up and brag about what they're going to do to you. Old men are the ones to watch out for. They don't talk about it......they just do it. BAM! They punch you, stab you or, shoot you. If you're lucky, you wake up on the ground wondering' what the hell happened!
 
#154 ·
I, too, believe the gun was pulled too soon. I get that your son was right there and at times we do out of the ordinary things when our family is involved. But that seems a little hasty. I'm glad things turned out ok at this point...kids are safe, you are safe, those men are safe, etc. I look forward to hearing what the Sheriff has to say.

This may be a time to work with/train your kids that when cars pull in the driveway or near the house that they do not know, they immediately obey your commands or get to the house (if no one is around) because of safety issues. I would also listen to the collective wisdom of this forum. You may get rocked for what you did (it's not personal just a forum) or you may be praised (it's not personal just a forum), but either way it's a way for you and me (heck, all of us) to learn and grow in this great responsibility of gun ownership.

Last comment...at the end of the day (after all your training and learnings), you are the one that had to make the call...you have to do what you have to do knowing there may be consequences. If you are comfortable with what you did...so be it.
 
#155 ·
I wasn't there but this scenario stinks like rotten fish. I have 3 little ones and I know how hard it is to get kids to obey you during a real "OH CRAP" situation. They just don't get it.

So if the OP felt the need to draw while being faced by two full grown men while holding a young child then so be it. I think that there is a disparity of force situation here and in the eye of the OP he felt that these men were making a move to snatch his son. I wasn't there and I can't say if he was right or wrong.

Apparently he hasn't been arrested so responding LEOs agreed with his actions, or at the very least, understood that he was in fear for his child's safety.
 
#161 ·
I can't believe this has gone on for 11 pages. I guess next time a couple of teenagers try to sell pizza coupons for their high school football team and I tell them no thanks and they ask "are you sure you can't help our team" I can draw down on them because I have a reasonable belief of an attempted home invasion?

Get real. For those of you that live in the country - I also grew up in the country. It's a BS excuse that response time can make an unreasonable belief a reasonable belief.

If anyone here thinks it was reasonable to believe there was an attempted kidnapping, then you would have to argue any resulting shoot would have been clean. If I think two men are attempting to abduct my child, I can shoot. But that is not what was happening here, and it doesn't even appear close.

Two old guys. 65 yards away. May not have heard the dad the first time. Both out of the car, no "get away driver" for a kiddie snatch. Scared poopless and froze when drawn on. And here many people think these are two hardened criminals that aren't even phased by the sight of a gun and that have super-duper hearing.

Use your common sense. Good God, sometimes people take this SA stuff to the extreme. Stop looking for boogeymen where there aren't any.
 
#162 ·
Business casual dressed (assumption), late model car driving (another assumption), sixty year old pedophiles working in teams...
Stealing children from the front lawns of their own homes with a parent present and engaging them verbally.

Probably not. But, I suppose anything's possible...

Still, I just don't see the need for the gun here...

What I do see is a need to teach your children not to walk towards or talk to strangers even on your own property, until you have introduced your children to the strangers (who may not be strangers to you).

Many churches do send witnesses out regularly... the most common being the LDS church (Mormons) and the Jehovah's Witnesses, some others do as well... But, "the Good News" in this case is that you won't likely be visited by them again.

By the way, a Christian wouldn't have a problem with a gun pointed at him... At least not for spreading the "Good News."

Sounds like you had a rush of adrenaline "slowing things down."

Your son did do the right thing in coming to you, taking his sister inside.

Older folks (including myself though not yet 60) are a bit slow to respond to verbal commands, they have to have time to process them and determine by what authority they are being issued, especially if they are doing no wrong in their own estimation... and even more especially if they are on a "Mission from God" (@Blues Brothers).

Older people on social missions, whether church related or not, remember a day when you could stop by a neighbor's house and say hi... And if they were lost, or unsure of an area, and saw someone outside... stopping to ask directions... and perhaps even being offered a cup of coffee...

Times are changing, we have some reason to fear nowadays...

Shame, that.
 
#163 ·
"Maybe he has been arrested. No way to know."

After reading all of the pages of responses and not seeing an update from the OP, which was supposed to happen after speaking with LE, I'm wondering if he has indeed been arrested for his actions.

I find the two older guy's behavior to be very strange. Every church I've been a member of throughout my life has had a policy of not saying anything other than "We're from [insert church/organization name here], are your parent's available?" to children encountered outside the home or at the door. When I was a kid, nothing besides "are your parent's available" was ever said to me by JW's, Mormons, etc. As a parent myself, I'd certainly be alarmed by their behavior... it's quite suspect, especially in these times. However, I probably wouldn't have drawn down, either. I would quickly close the distance, put myself in between my kids and them (if I didn't get them inside for whatever reason), and sternly ask who they are, on who's behalf are they here, and if their answer doesn't involve them saying "We're Detective/Sherrif/Agent/Officer so and so", they'd be told to leave immediately. If they refused, well, that's a whole 'nother story

ETA: I'd drive around lost and risk becoming even more lost BEFORE I'd ever stop and ask a kid for directions... YMMV.
 
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