This is a discussion on Identification within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hello, new to the forum and pistols in general. I understand the logic for concealed and the general rule of thumb to retreat if possible, ...

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Thread: Identification

  1. #1
    Member Array Mousey's Avatar
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    Hello, new to the forum and pistols in general. I understand the logic for concealed and the general rule of thumb to retreat if possible, but if that is not a possibility and you have to draw, what is stopping someone from shooting you? A little scenario...

    You are in a store towards the back and you see someone come in with a gun. The gunman starts beating the cashier. You draw and order him to stop! A police officer or another gun carrying person comes in and sizes up the situation. You are still holding your gun towards the guy at the register. The other person does not know friend from foe.

    Many a police officer in civilian clothes has been shot because unable to identify. Now as I understand it they are training better to identify themselves with their badge so hopefully they will not get shot. What does a civilian do? He does not have a badge and I do not want rely on everyone yelling because the emotions are too high. And they may not feel that the threat is under control so they can lower their weapon.

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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    Situational awareness, training, experience, and lots of luck.
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  3. #3
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    Array Hopyard's Avatar
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    Since in your scenario there are officers on the scene, MYOB and let them do their thing.

    All you can do if something like that actually becomes real is put your gun down and hold your hand up so the officer
    quickly can see you are not a threat. They'll sort it out later.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  5. #4
    VIP Member Array Welder516's Avatar
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    Training , Training , and studying and reading . Then say a prayer everyday you never have to act on it .
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  6. #5
    VIP Member Array OldVet's Avatar
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    Hiding inside a bottle of Jim Beam Black in S. FL.
    Some LEOs in civilian dress have been shot, but far from many. LEO comes in on a crime scene and sees you pointing a firearm, not at him, 99.9% chance he will tell you to drop it. You're imagining the very worst case of a very unlikely scenario. Another option that may be more in line with your concerns is don't carry and don't leave the house.

    The reality is few CC'ers are mistakenly shot by responding LEOs. Run the research and let us know how many you can come up with.
    Retired USAF E-8. Curmudgeon at large.
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  7. #6
    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    If you draw a weapon and then an officer appears, drop your weapon and put your hands up. No guarantees, but one more good reason not to draw a weapon unless you really, really have to.

    Personally, I carry to protect myself and my loved ones, not to foil armed robbers. I'm not dying to save a cashier a few stitches.
    "Lots of ways to help people. Sometimes heal patients; sometimes shoot dangerous people. Either way helps."
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  8. #7
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    Array Mike1956's Avatar
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    Another great first post. Welcome to the board.
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  9. #8
    VIP Member Array patri0t's Avatar
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    The universal language of 'qualified' LEOs in that barrels pointed downward are not an immediate threat & you will have time to put your sidearm down.
    Why would you get involved in a cashier taking a mere beating? The cashier may see your sidearm and think you a larger threat!

    Also, If you are not pulling the trigger, why is your sidearm still visible &/or pointed at anyone? A gunfight is a 3-5 second ordeal.

    Consider getting some training; especially about when NOT to intervene in law enforcement duties (~99.9% of the time).
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  10. #9
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    Array manolito's Avatar
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    My job if personal family is not involved unless shots are fired is to be the best possible witness I can be.

    I don't know how they are trained but I would guess a police officer arriving on scene considers all bad guys until the story is unraveled. I don't want to be identified as having a gun or having one in my hand.
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  11. #10
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    Welcome to the forum. As others have said, but in slightly different words: You are NOT a police officer.

    A private citizen should carry a gun to protect his/her own life and possibly the lives of others. Period. This means sincerely feeling that your life is in danger! It also means, as others have said, that often your best action is to GET OUT of there, or at least to hide or lay low.

    Carrying a gun is a huge responsibility. There are tens of dozens of threads on this forum that can help you get some of the knowledge you need to become a responsible defensive carry person. You also need classes and instruction on a personal level - as much as you can afford, from really good schools/instructors. There are also threads here where people list the best places they know about for this kind of training.

    Good luck with your quest for knowledge and proficiency.
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  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Mousey: First, WELCOME to the forum.

    Your question is a valid one, and you will get lots of answers here. My take on a brief answer is that any situation like you describe is a rather dynamic scenario that has multiple branching possible outcomes.

    My recommendation to you may be a tad frustrating, as it is not a quick and easy answer: I recommend that you read and study much here--especially the scenario thread. Go back and read, study and learn for yourself the fundamental philosophical and tactical considerations that come into play in real life within literal seconds.

    I also suggest that you get yourself some quality firearms training SOON, whether it be Front Sight, Gun sight, or any other reputable training program (check out the "Training" thread.). If it is good training, you will never regret it.
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

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  13. #12
    Senior Member Array cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    You trying to get arrested or killed? Some of the laws concerning this vary from state to state, so you might want to check up on the laws where you are... but I'll give some general info that will usually be safe anywhere.

    If you see someone beating on someone else, you can try to get them to stop, but you are NOT a police officer. You do not enforce laws... you do NOT draw your gun and point it at the person and yell for them to stop. You only draw a gun to use deadly force... and you need a legal reason to use deadly force.

    The ONLY time you draw your gun, is if you believe someone is going to cause serious bodily injury (that doesn't mean bruises), or death, to you... if you so choose you can legally do the same thing to protect someone else from serious bodily injury and death. This means if you believe that within the next second that the person beating the cashier is going to actually kill the cashier, you can draw your weapon to stop the threat, and that point you do NOT order them to stop and point a weapon at them, you shoot them, and keep shooting them until they are no longer a threat... if you cannot shoot them for whatever reason (unwilling, can't get a clean shot, etc...), you do not draw your gun.

    The biggest factor to remember here... you do not brandish, show off, or draw your weapon unless you are going to shoot it. You also do not intervene to enforce laws... you may want to yell at the person (from cover) something like... "you are on video and the police are here!!" to get their attention to stop maybe.... if you really are a tough person and you want to get in the fight to protect the cashier, you can do so (in most areas)... but you do not do it with your weapon when legally deadly force is not required.

    There have been cases where a legal gun carrier tried to help others and have been found guilty of murder for jumping into others business like that. If you pull your gun out and yell at a person (breaking the law or not) to do something (stop, I'll shoot, etc...), and that person attacks you... and you shoot them... legally you just committed murder (or manslaughter depending on variables...). This is because you'll be seen as starting the fight between you and the person... and that is NOT self defense. You had a gun in your hand and ordered someone to do something, it doesn't matter if they were breaking the law or not, you just threatened them with deadly force, which is illegal. You be certain they are actually going to kill someone for sure before you use deadly force. You are NOT a police officer just because you carry a gun.

  14. #13
    Senior Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
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    In your scenario, I'm heading out the back door and calling 911. I'm not a cop, nor do I intend to play one in the midst of a robbery.
    Now if I'm pinned in without an exit and the dirtbag decides I'm of interest to him, then the plans change.
    Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”

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  15. #14
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    cjohnson44546 , I cannot agree with your post. You do not have to fire your gun anytime you draw. Not a good mindset. Many times a drawn gun will end a confrontation. If you are being attacked you have every right to defend yourself in most states. Rethink your advice. I do agree with the part about being a good witness and not intervening unless you are threatened. If it appears another person is about to be maimed or killed then you have to decide for yourself whether to become involved, and can you live with the outcome of your actions.
    I shoot with a pistol and a Canon. We must all hang together amigos, or we will all hang separately. NRA life member.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    What is stuff about about yelling "Freeze", or "Halt", or any similar nonsense? Im not a cop.

    Btw, in case no one ever told you, if the BG has his back to you, and you yell at him, hes apt to turn around and shoot you. IF he needed shooting, I sure dont want him turning around to give him a better shooting position on me.

    Something I didnt even know existed till this forum: The Guy Who Wants To Be A Hero.

    I am not that guy. So, I really dont understand the motivation. My motivation is to protect me and my loved ones. If others benefit as a result, thats fine by me.

    But it aint to jump in, yell "freeze", or some other hollywood line, and try to take out BGs, when cops are on the scene.
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