When to shoot situation-hypothetical

This is a discussion on When to shoot situation-hypothetical within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I did not want to hijack the FL shooting thread (which BTW, is producing a good discussion without the pitfalls we saw with the original ...

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Thread: When to shoot situation-hypothetical

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    When to shoot situation-hypothetical

    I did not want to hijack the FL shooting thread (which BTW, is producing a good discussion without the pitfalls we saw with the original Zimerman thread)

    Many have brought up the fact that it is OK to shoot if there is a percieved threat (I am paraphrasing so give me some slack)

    Tell me what would happen in this situation:

    Elderly man (picture the FL shooter, Reeves), ex-LEO, walking down a street in a not-so-good-part of town at night. Out of nowhere he hears someone saying "hey old man, got the time". The gentleman turns to see 3 young men (20's) standing there about three feet away in the alley. One reaches toward his pocket.

    After the man shoots the youth(s) the police finds a weapon on the young man.

    Good shoot? Comments? At what point is the man in danger? Is it percieved or real?

    After you comment, scroll down to post #6 for more info (including map)
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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    State? City? Ambient light? Weather? Temperature?

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    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    Any witnesses left alive?
    OD* likes this.
    I carry a gun, because a Cop is too heavy.

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    Tough call. Was there an actual threat implied? Not really, but finding the gun may be the saving grace.
    NONAME762 and Ianthin like this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I did not want to hijack the FL shooting thread (which BTW, is producing a good discussion without the pitfalls we saw with the original Zimerman thread)

    Many have brought up the fact that it is OK to shoot if there is a percieved threat (I am paraphrasing so give me some slack)

    Tell me what would happen in this situation:

    Elderly man (picture the FL shooter, Reeves), ex-LEO, walking down a street in a not-so-good-part of town at night. Out of nowhere he hears someone saying "hey old man, got the time". The gentleman turns to see 3 young men (20's) standing there about three feet away in the alley. One reaches toward his pocket.

    After the man shoots the youth(s) the police finds a weapon on the young man.

    Good shoot? Comments? At what point is the man in danger? Is it percieved or real?
    The more accurate legal question is probably was the shooter's perception of a threat reasonable?
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Disclaimer: I am not trying to make a point or say folks are right or wrong in the other thread. I want to start a scenario where there is only a little bit of information (like we get from the media) and see how it goes as more information is revealed. Kind of an ongoing discussion like we have with the one in FL...just hypothetical.

    OK..Next piece of information:

    The men just came out of a cafe and were waiting for thier GF's. The man that was shot has a CHL
    scenario.jpg
    Secret Spuk likes this.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rock and Glock View Post
    State? City? Ambient light? Weather? Temperature?
    Killeen, TX, Just after Dusk. Freezing rain, about 35 degrees.

    Quote Originally Posted by LimaCharlie View Post
    Any witnesses left alive?
    Yes, the old man and the other two guys.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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    Member Array Titan84's Avatar
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    It's hard to say whether something is perceived or real if you aren't the one in the particular situation. But I know I wouldn't want to be the guy in that scenario in court. Generally speaking, I don't think a young guy reaching into his pocket is grounds to shoot. I could see pulling your weapon in that situation just to be on the safe side. But actually shooting someone for reaching into their pocket? IDK, seems excessive to me.

    That said, in this day and age with everyone having cell phones if three guys in their 20's asks you for the time then I would say it's fair to assume they are up to no good. My first move in that situation would be to try and get more than 3 feet between me and them. Keep on walking IMO. If they follow then you can feel pretty confident that you have a problem.

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    Member Array JDavisArk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I did not want to hijack the FL shooting thread (which BTW, is producing a good discussion without the pitfalls we saw with the original Zimerman thread)

    Many have brought up the fact that it is OK to shoot if there is a percieved threat (I am paraphrasing so give me some slack)

    Tell me what would happen in this situation:

    Elderly man (picture the FL shooter, Reeves), ex-LEO, walking down a street in a not-so-good-part of town at night. Out of nowhere he hears someone saying "hey old man, got the time". The gentleman turns to see 3 young men (20's) standing there about three feet away in the alley. One reaches toward his pocket.

    After the man shoots the youth(s) the police finds a weapon on the young man.

    Good shoot? Comments? At what point is the man in danger? Is it percieved or real?
    IMO.....reaching for the pocket. Just watched the movie "the departed" again for the third time the other day. Member the guy got shot for reaching for his cigarettes? A perceived threat is a no go for me. Got to see the threat rather than your narrow minded thinking of what you think is going to happen. By God......the day you actually shoot someone just for thinking what they might do or are capable of on a whim is a day we all need to do away with lethal weapons. Who are we to judge? Keep it simple and stay alive. The rest of the questions really don't matter, and you're thinking more than you should. Thinking is not a sin, but you can easily make it one unless you're pure in thinking. How much thought have you given it? Will you be ready to answer rather than ask? When your life is on the line.......you have no time to ask questions. You do or you won't. Any predisposition seems to be premeditated. Keep it simple. Stay alive. The rest of the world and what they think are nowhere near as important as your day to day survival. So........forget hypothetical and ask your question again with a better understanding of what you would like to get out of life.
    NONAME762 likes this.
    Carry means carry. That means all of the time. If you don't, you're just kidding yourself and opening up options for someone to take you down.

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    All cell phones show the current time, and everyone carries one, so the question about the time is the first indicator of dubious intent.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Killeen, TX, Just after Dusk. Freezing rain, about 35 degrees.
    Oh, Killeen! Fire away!
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    This one is going to the grand jury - good luck

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    With more information provided, does Texas have a Stand Your Ground law or does one have a duty to retreat?
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure. - T. Jefferson

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    Member Array Hank19119's Avatar
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    I could understand lethal force in this situation. Out at night and 3 young men come up on you and ask for the time(what young person doesn`t have a cellphone?) and then one of them reaches in his pocket. I would stand by the shooter 100% in this situation.
    NRA Member! Give an inch, they will take a yard.

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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    For me, the threat must be "apparent", not just "perceived". To me it is not a self defense situation until someone is actively trying to harm me, the "chance" they may attempt to harm me is not enough. So for the first situation, until I see what I believe is a gun or they try to jump me, the gun stays holstered, most likely with my hand on it.
    Sarge65, tdave, tacman605 and 3 others like this.

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