An unlikely request.

An unlikely request.

This is a discussion on An unlikely request. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Recently talking with other rape victims it seems that more and more rapists are wearing condoms. In a way this is good because the spread ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array ms.k's Avatar
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    An unlikely request.

    Recently talking with other rape victims it seems that more and more rapists are wearing condoms. In a way this is good because the spread of disease is less likely, but finding the rapist makes investigations more difficult.

    Anyway I got to thinking of ways women(men) could stall their attacker or set things up in a way that they can escape. Example playing along, saying that you are into it but want to get a condom, leaving you time and space to draw, and or get away. These women aren't very hardcore and sorta lean liberal. Was wondering if you guys had any suggestions?


  2. #2
    Member Array ms.k's Avatar
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    Forgot to leave an article on the subject.

    "The three men made no effort to disguise their faces, showed little concern that the woman's cries for help might be heard by passers-by, and raped her only 200 yards from a police station, near Prospect Park in Brooklyn last May.

    But the rapists' nerve had limits. One by one, the victim told police, each man paused, reached into a pocket, tore open a small plastic wrapper and put on a condom. Even at their most brazen, investigators said, the attackers could not shed the fear of contracting AIDS.

    In what might be an unforeseen consequence of sex education, rapists are increasingly wearing condoms. Five years ago investigators would have been surprised by a victim's statement that her assailant used a condom. Today detectives, prosecutors and counselors say that it is no longer unusual.

    Condoms could prevent a victim from becoming pregnant or infected with a sexually transmitted disease, but prosecutors say they also make it harder to convict rapists. With a condom, the attacker can take the evidence with him, making the job of the prosecutor, who has no access to semen from which to take DNA samples, more complicated.

    Police officials and prosecutors say they have no statistics on the subject, but they handle such cases regularly, including two recent attacks in Central Park and the rape of a jogger beneath the Coney Island boardwalk in April by five teen-agers.

    Rape counselors across the country say that patients routinely say that the man who attacked them used a condom. Rachel Ferencik, a counselor at the Grady Rape Crisis Center at Grady Hospital in Atlanta, said that it has become one of the first questions emergency-room doctors ask patients.

    Marilyn Lewis, head of the San Francisco Rape Treatment Center, a city agency, said that 15 to 20 percent of her cases involve condom rape.

    "It's not just national but international," Ms. Lewis said, adding that in the last week patients from Germany and Jamaica said they had been victimized this way.

    Although there are differing theories and rapists' behavior is seldom consistent, some researchers say that what is emerging from the practice is a better understanding of what drives certain men to commit rape, reinforcing the thinking that the crime is usually not spontaneous, but rather a carefully planned act.

    The use of condoms by attackers counters the idea that rape is an "out of the blue" crime, said Ken Cullen, the head of Child Abuse Prevention Behavior Associates, a private group based in Manhattan. Mr. Cullen, who says he has counseled more than 3,000 male sexual offenders, said that rape is often the product of fantasy and planning and can take a great deal of time, beginning perhaps with the attacker stalking his victim and ending with the actual rape.

    "The reality is that there is always some premeditation," Mr. Cullen said. "Sometimes they wear disguises, dark clothes or hoods. The condom becomes part of the scheme."

    Eileen Treacy, a psychology instructor at Lehman College who is a frequent expert witness at rape trials, agrees: "It's a phenomenon in the last five years that doesn't strike me as so strange. I have learned to respect molesters and rapists in terms of how they go about planning."

    Ms. Treacy said that rapists often get more pleasure from planning the assault -- including fantasizing, picking out clothing and choosing the victim -- than from the rape. Most men who wear condoms during attacks are repeat rapists, she said, and they may derive a thrill from the use of another prop.

    But some law-enforcement officials, including Linda Fairstein, head of the Special Victims Bureau in the Manhattan District Attorney's office, said that while they accept the theories on what motivates such men, they find it difficult to accept that the use of a condom is part of a logical plan by the rapist. It seems bizarre that anyone would commit such a violent crime with an unpredictable outcome, and then take such a precaution, she said.

    "It's difficult to assign a pathology to this," she said. "But then remember, these are not normal-thinking individuals. Why would someone climb down a fire escape, climb into a darkened apartment where there may be six men waiting to jump him, hold a knife to a woman's throat, and he attacks her even though she may be crying, screaming, throwing up, and yet he remembers to bring a condom?" Greater Power to Attacker?

    Rapists and Condoms; Is Use a Cavalier Act or a Way to Avoid Disease and Arrest?




    Condom use seems to run counter to the image of a rapist bent on humiliating his victim and exercising power over her. But Ms. Lewis of the San Francisco rape center said a condom can represent even greater power to the attacker.

    "It's the height of cavalier for someone to rape a woman and act as if it's so normal that they can actually stop and put on a condom," Ms. Lewis said. Condom use is pragmatic. For instance, Ms. Treacy said, they are sometimes worn in gang rapes, because the assailants may be worried about catching a disease from one another. Rapists have been found to use condoms when attacking prostitutes, who are often the victims of sexual assaults, because prostitutes are considered to be likely carriers of the H.I.V. virus that causes AIDS.

    But there have been cases, Ms. Fairstein said, in which a rapist used a condom and then later that night had unprotected sex with a woman he met in a bar. In another case, the rapist used a condom, only to leave it at the scene.

    On the other hand, some rapists, like safecrackers who use gloves, know that a condom can impede their detection, and this provides a sense of invulnerability, some experts say. A Noted Condom Rapist

    Perhaps the most notorious example of a condom rapist is Eugene Adger, the so-called Brownstone rapist, who was convicted of assaulting six women in their homes in 1992. Lieut. Ellen Hale, the Police Department's head of the special victims squad in Manhattan, said that Mr. Adger also choked his victims, all of whom survived. After one attack, the victim told detectives that Mr. Adger swallowed the used condom in an apparent attempt to dispose of the evidence.

    Condom use is not necessarily a serious problem for prosecutors, Ms. Fairstein said. In a third of all rape cases there is no penetration anyway, she said. Where condoms might pose a difficulty in a courtroom is in acquaintance rape cases. In those cases, the condom gives the sense of a "consensual event," she said. Still, she would never discourage a victim from asking her attacker to wear a condom, to prevent her from contracting a disease.

    The woman raped near Prospect Park on May 22 was approached while she waited for a friend about 10:30 P.M. in front of the entrance to Caledonian Hospital. She was forced at gunpoint down the street. The three attackers were not deterred until a man walking by heard her screams and came to her aid. Soiled condoms were found at the scene. No arrests have been made in the case.

    "There is nothing altruistic about cases like this," said Marjorie Fisher, chief of the Special Victims Bureau of the Queens District Attorney's office. "Rapists are violent and selfish people looking out for themselves. They don't give a damn about the victim."

  3. #3
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    Distracting an attacker will always be an iffy thing, and will depend entirely on the circumstances...being alert to your surroundings and maintaining enough space to access your firearm is a better plan, but trying to convince your "sorta leaning liberal" friends to not go around in Condition White would be the place to start.
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

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    Member Array ms.k's Avatar
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    I'm having a hard time with the board lingo. What's white, orange, and a few other catch phrases some of you say?

    Good reply, at this point I'm brainstorming. I like having the answers, but I have to ask questions to get them.

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    threat level board. Cond. wht = unaware, yellow = awareness, orange = i.d. trouble,cond red= responding to threat.
    Not much to tell ya as far as distracting. guess you could say "I have a condom ",while reaching for a weapon.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    The color codes are a way to describe your current state of awareness (just like the Homeland Security color codes..).

    White= oblivious to your surroundings...sleepwalking..

    Yellow (or Orange)= aware of who and what are near you, and being observant...

    Red= Look out! The fight is on...

    This is all a paraphrase of Col. Jeff Cooper's color code for threat awareness...
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

    "They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper

  7. #7
    Member Array ms.k's Avatar
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    I knew the colors signified awareness, just didn't know which ones lol. I don't think I conveyed my question well. Maybe this goes somewhere else.

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    perhaps a bit more info as to what you are brainstorming?
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    VIP Member Array Ti Carry's Avatar
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    I always thought that a rape was one of power or to contol there victim and not about the sex really. I am not sure a condom thrown in the mix is going to make a bit of difference. I guess tho all will be different in how they approch it.

    The best thing to do is seek training and mind set, learn the color codes and what they mean, be aware of everything at all times. You can do this and remain calm at the same time. Have your firearm accessable to you at all times meaning not in a purse that you are not sure of where you put it. I would also look into a defense knife like one that is hung from a chain under your shirt and all you would have to do is reach under and pull it. Fight nasty and break all rules as your life probably depends on it.

    Train, train and train some more.


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ms.k View Post
    ...thinking of ways women(men) could stall their attacker or set things up in a way that they can escape.
    There are members of this board with much more experience than I in first-hand dealings with criminals...I bet you'll get some creative replies here...
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

    "They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper

  11. #11
    Member Array ms.k's Avatar
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    Obviously this happens to men too, just not as often and they are less likely to talk about it. What would your gut reaction be? Try and talk the perp down, fight to the death, resist, hoping that's all he'll do then not kill you afterwards? Then there are times when you may not have your gun readily near or available to you.

    I am not sure a condom thrown in the mix is going to make a bit of difference.
    Trust me, rape victims worry about their rapists passing AIDS and other VD's..so it does make a small difference at least.

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    No Mercy...

    Rape is a crime that 'screams' for instance justice. The damage done goes far beyond the initial incident itself.

    If one can learn to remain in the correct 'alert level', have a firearm with which she/he has received training, and be determined to meet force with force...the outcomes becomes much more positive for the 'potential' victim.

    Remember..."I feared for my life, and I shot to stop the threat. I will be happy to talk with you officer, as soon as my lawyer is present!"

    Shoot until the threat is stopped...completely stopped!


    OMO

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    I seem to remember a case from the '90s that got a lot of press. The victim requested her attacker use a condom, she told him "you don't know what I might have". When the guy was caught, the defense used the condom thing against her, saying it implied consent.

    Maybe things have changed since then, and I don't remember the outcome of that case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorldPax View Post
    I seem to remember a case from the '90s that got a lot of press. The victim requested her attacker use a condom, she told him "you don't know what I might have". When the guy was caught, the defense used the condom thing against her, saying it implied consent.

    Maybe things have changed since then, and I don't remember the outcome of that case.
    Yea I remember that case.. I don't remember if he got off, but it was a big thing when she asked him to put on the condom.
    I also remember another case where the guy got off because the girl was not wearing underwear. Sometimes I think there should be instant justice. IMHO...
    "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."
    General George Patton

  15. #15
    Member Array ms.k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Rape is a crime that 'screams' for instance justice. The damage done goes far beyond the initial incident itself.

    If one can learn to remain in the correct 'alert level', have a firearm with which she/he has received training, and be determined to meet force with force...the outcomes becomes much more positive for the 'potential' victim.

    Remember..."I feared for my life, and I shot to stop the threat. I will be happy to talk with you officer, as soon as my lawyer is present!"

    Shoot until the threat is stopped...completely stopped!


    OMO

    ret

    Yea, that's logical,but I was the only one that even mentioned the word gun,(well that I didn't have it on me that night) and I felt like they were looking at me funny. I was approached by one of the counselors and she in her own way asked (beating around the bush) if I'd be interested in teaching(assisting) rape prevention, that they needed women that were comfortable sharing and educating other women on the topic. I was like woah, this is my first meeting and your asking me this?! It did get the wheels turning and I would like to inform others about the dangers etc, but I'm still taking baby steps myself.

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