I'm startin' to hate grocery stores! - Page 2

I'm startin' to hate grocery stores!

This is a discussion on I'm startin' to hate grocery stores! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by lowflyer My whole point really is that deadly force is not going to be required in an incalculably high percentage of the ...

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Thread: I'm startin' to hate grocery stores!

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    My whole point really is that deadly force is not going to be required in an incalculably high percentage of the average person's daily encounters. By average person, I mean someone who does not deal drugs, work at a convenience store or bank, or respond to domestic disputes etc... Going for the gun therefore seems to me like it should be well outside of the realm of a conditioned response for Joe Citizen.
    If you think avoiding those things will remove you from the possibility of a life threatening encounter than where you live must be pretty peaceful. Elsewhere I talk about our local paper reporting that robbers are increasingly killing compliant victims, we have the beginnings of gang activities moving out from the cities as our subburb grows. Ever read about nice people like MS13?

    Our LEO's locally are starting to deal with increasing problems with armed meth and crack heads, these people are noted for random erratic behavior.

    While I don't have the reference in front of me I read one study that showed legally armed citizens are drawing over 1 million times a year to defend themselves against violent crime. Maybe you think we're a little to quick but then I've known people I know who figured they could get out of trouble without defending themselves. They were wrong. I hope all of us never have to find out!
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.


  2. #17
    Member Array newmexiglock's Avatar
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    I am in agreement with Lowflyer. We should discern the threat before touching the gun. To discern after touching the gun does seem that one acted prematurely.

    The description of the initial scenario is one of a man (albeit large) and 2 women with a shopping cart in a parking lot of a grocery store, and the man gets loud. There is no mention of the relative ages of the women (mother/daughter), whether or not they were acting like a family, if there were actual groceries in their cart, nor was there any mention of there being other cars in the same row of the parking lot. The focus was of a loud, big man. Only after the gun was grabbed was it noticed that it appeared to be a family screwing around. "He never even noticed me or what I was doing! Jeez, clueless and acting kinda stupid and threatening to boot." Criticize the big man for not paying attention to you? Why would he even notice you if he wasn't intentionally threatening you. Seems that if one were in "yellow", then it would have been obvious that the big man was probably focused on his family. Paranoid? Probably.

    It is good that drawing practice allowed us to act automatically, but practice should include a lot more than drawing... it should include actually sizing up the situation by using the defensive tool between the ears before ever going for the gun. Just my humble opinion.
    Last edited by newmexiglock; January 1st, 2007 at 10:09 AM.
    America should have license to carry "children" laws...

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  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr View Post
    If you think avoiding those things will remove you from the possibility of a life threatening encounter than where you live must be pretty peaceful. Elsewhere I talk about our local paper reporting that robbers are increasingly killing compliant victims, we have the beginnings of gang activities moving out from the cities as our subburb grows. Ever read about nice people like MS13?
    No, I do not believe that avoiding those things will remove me from the possibility. The probability that I might encounter violence will always be there, but I believe there are things I can do for myself to reduce that probability to the point that it is low enough to not compel me to reach for a gun at the first sign of trouble. I have had to rely on these skills every day of my life up to this point because a gun was not something that I normally had readily at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr View Post
    Our LEO's locally are starting to deal with increasing problems with armed meth and crack heads, these people are noted for random erratic behavior.
    If there is a large number of these drug addicts in your neck of the woods, I reckon you just have to deal with them as best you see fit. No doubt you have to give these people a wide berth when you spot them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr View Post
    While I don't have the reference in front of me I read one study that showed legally armed citizens are drawing over 1 million times a year to defend themselves against violent crime. Maybe you think we're a little to quick but then I've known people I know who figured they could get out of trouble without defending themselves. They were wrong. I hope all of us never have to find out!
    I have heard that statistic before and it is startling. I would never advocate not defending oneself. I guess I just advocate exercising restraint when it comes to the gun option because, for myself, I see it as a last ditch thing to use for saving my hide when I have run out of other options or when the threat warrants it. When I finally do get to carry, I reckon my theory on the subject will evolve. Amen to never having to find out.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  4. #19
    Member Array pappy's Avatar
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    I believe there is a place between all of this that is the happy medium. But, I also think some of the stories told here, and what and how people carry and react, may be over the top at times. Reading that some people actually carry three guns on there person at any given time, or take at least four with them on vacation, along with a handful of different knives, I believe that is way over the top for most people. If one isn't enough protection you probably shouldn't be there. Its all in the person though, if they feel they need that or not.

    But with this post, since it was night and he didn't see you go for your gun, no harm done. I guess just be even more cautious next time and maybe you will see who's coming and how they are acting, and remember to always have a escape plan for every place you are. and pulling a weapon is the super very last resort.


    But After reading some of the "minor" details, If I was in this situation, I would most likely have done the same thing too.
    Last edited by pappy; January 1st, 2007 at 12:31 PM.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Hmmm, maybe I'm not explaining myself and the situation well. Dark parking lot full of cars, parked near light. We practice situational avoidance as much as possible as I have a handicapped wife but life does require things like grocery shopping after work. This means no running, no retreat with her to protect as she can't move that fast. Me, I tend to stay very aware of surroundings, particularly with her to protect. Had seen this guy coming with two females, dark enough to make such fine judgments as age, wedding rings, etc hard to judge. Just finish loading wife and groceries. Guy comes to end of my truck and starts the yelling, aggressive act right at that point near me. I'm pinned in between two cars with someone else beside myself to worry about at a range of about 10 feet who has suddenly started acting aggressive. Oh and wifes door was open at my back so no backing up which would have exposed her anyways. Should I have offered him a beer? A one or two second delay while waiting at this point would would have meant me losing a fight if he meant harm. Luckily he didn't, we are OK and if you didn't get it earlier I have never felt I needed to go this far before with my firearm. Please don't imagine that I just go for my weapon just because someone sneezes, jeesh!

    I was in a situation where for just a few moments I was an easy target for trouble and a guy took that moment to act like just that kind of trouble. I guess the problem with trying to describe something like this is you had to be there so I will refrain from doing so in the future. Those who know me well consider me one of the more responsible and level headed people they know. My reactions have kept me and my family alive through 12 years at sea including 1 cat 4 hurricane, 2 cat 2's and 4 cat 1's. Two tornadoes including one direct hit. The south Florida war zone known as the aftermath of Andrew and several third world waterfronts where gunshots at night were just part of the local entertainment and those are just some of the high points! I've not exactly lived a normal, suburban life. I guess I'm trying to say I'm not a greenhorn climbing onto his first bull.

    The point of my post really was to try and encourage people to train as my training worked. I moved to protect my wife and myself, took what I believe were prudent steps in the given instant and stopped short in that same instant as things developed without standing around doing a lot of guessing and hand wringing! I'm going to leave this subject alone in the future.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    Don't get all worried, this site as with others is filled with "Computer Commando's". You perceived a threat, you prepared for attack, threat never transpired, nobody new you drew your weapon, life goes on, no harm no foul. I think you did just fine. I have said this in another post, it is impossible to say "I would do this or that" with a 100% of certainty unless you are actually placed in the situation. So don't let these "Computer Commando's" get you riled up.
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  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    I think it pays to be aware of your surrondings especially when in a bad area. Iam not going to be trigger happy. Before I hurt An innocent person I would give up ccw. you can become like the deer hunter who takes bush shots. Every thing can be done to excess. Carrying a gun takes a lot of common sense. I have been in some scary situations and have come out ok except two times and this did not require me to shoot . Just the sight of the gun solved the problem. Just use common sense.

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    EL,

    I didn't mean to sound critical of your particular situation. My intent was to discuss only the instinctively reaching for a gun thing. It probably could have just as well been a separate thread, but the 'automatic' comments that followed your post sort of got me thinking. I had no idea of the actual circumstances you faced, and certainly don't fault you for feeling threatened. All turned out well and that is what is important.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  9. #24
    Member Array produman's Avatar
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    I think you did what you thought was the right thing at that moment. I don't see how anyone can judge you if they were not there. Stay safe.
    "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."
    General George Patton

  10. #25
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    ELCruisr, your post was important as it started a meaningful discussion. Thinking about your situation and how you reacted let me mentally evaluate how I would react. I also thought Loflyer added to the discussion. His point of view needs to be considered by all us who carry a deadly weapon.

    In summary, I would like to think I could have acted as effectively as you did but I won't forget that it is a deadly weapon to be used only as a last resort.

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