I'm startin' to hate grocery stores!

This is a discussion on I'm startin' to hate grocery stores! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Was at the grocery store tonight with the wife. Same one that I posted about where I caught the guy attempting a pickpocket theft on ...

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Thread: I'm startin' to hate grocery stores!

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    I'm startin' to hate grocery stores!

    Was at the grocery store tonight with the wife. Same one that I posted about where I caught the guy attempting a pickpocket theft on me a few months ago. Got all done and back out to the parking lot. Dark but parked near a street light and misting rain. Did all the good stuff, scanned nobody near by. Got wife installed in truck (she's slightly handicapped) with the groceries and about to lock her in while I move to drivers side. Only people near by now are a BIG guy with two women and a cart coming up our row. He suddenly starts shouting incoherently and comes around the end of my truck.

    You know what? That drawing practice works! Door shut and locked, cover garment swept and full grip on 1911 before I realized it. I stopped there because it was quickly obvious he was messing around with what I'm guessing were wife and teen daughter. He never even noticed me or what I was doing! Jeez, clueless and acting kinda stupid and threatening to boot. Maybe I'm paranoid but a few conversations with local LEO's has made me realize what's happening in our once sleepy suburb and more aware than ever.

    Keep practicing folks, it works!!!

    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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    Glad it works.

    I've noticed the same thing...hand on grip before I even realize it's there. Only one incident where that happened. I'm with you; practice works.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    Member Array ms.k's Avatar
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    Yea and going at night seems to help put you on a higher alert status.

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    So did you carry a light too? Going out a night , I always try to bring a light along. Seems like you handled it well. Gotta wonder about some people just not thinking.(the guy shouting)
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    I think I might have done just the same Eric.

    Only thing I am aware of is that us CCW's being (I hope) more alert and sensitive to ''vibes'' - have to be careful not to over react. Sometimes it's a fine dividing line between what is OK and what isn't.

    Getting hand on gun tho - yes - I can see many circumstances where that can occur, and in dark of course it is not too likely your action will be easily seen if in error.

    If it is actually needed then different matter Stay safe.
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    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    So did you carry a light too? Going out a night , I always try to bring a light along. Seems like you handled it well. Gotta wonder about some people just not thinking.(the guy shouting)
    Yeah, usually got the Surefire G2 but, stupid me, tonight I left it home. If it had been for real I wouldn't of had time to deploy anyways. Hey, I think someone I know is making a new kydex sheath for it too one day in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    Only thing I am aware of is that us CCW's being (I hope) more alert and sensitive to ''vibes'' - have to be careful not to over react. Sometimes it's a fine dividing line between what is OK and what isn't.

    Getting hand on gun tho - yes - I can see many circumstances where that can occur, and in dark of course it is not too likely your action will be easily seen if in error.
    I stopped at the grip because it was quickly obvious he was just screwing around as I focused in on him. He just picked coming around the end of my truck to sound off after seeming pretty peaceable before. No bad vibes up till then but I'm always a little more alert when loading up my wife. Bad timing on the part of a clueless individual and I mean this guy was BIG. Ah, for summer with all that evening sunshine!


    Edited to add:
    I think what was (in a way) a pleasant surprise was I did what I'd always strive to train for without thinking. Moved to protect wife, pulled garment and grabbed weapon while focusing and evaluating level of threat and evaluated correctly. You always wonder but it works!
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Amazing how everything just goes into automatic like that isn't it?

    I've had a few instances like that myself. Good to know that if the situation calls for it, the reflexes are there isn't it?
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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Scary to think that the man in the parking lot may have been a CCL also or LEO, and seeing you reach for your gun, reach for his own and draw on what he thinks is a BG.

    I know I might take some heat for saying it, but honestly, all the talk in here about, "I reached for my gun and it was automatic" sort of makes me a bit apprehensive. If I ever go for mine in defense of myself or another, the only thing that will be "automatic" is the chambering of the next round. That is not for lack of practice. In fact, I practice so that I can act quickly and with precision at the moment I choose to act.

    I may be all wet to some in here but, assessing a potential threat and deciding a course of action should always come before reaching for the gun IMO. Acting instinctively with a deadly weapon should be a 'something clearly and without a doubt hit the fan' response. YMMV

    The above intended only to provoke thought and further discussion.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    Scary to think that the man in the parking lot may have been a CCL also or LEO, and seeing you reach for your gun, reach for his own and draw on what he thinks is a BG.

    I know I might take some heat for saying it, but honestly, all the talk in here about, "I reached for my gun and it was automatic" sort of makes me a bit apprehensive. If I ever go for mine in defense of myself or another, the only thing that will be "automatic" is the chambering of the next round. That is not for lack of practice. In fact, I practice so that I can act quickly and with precision at the moment I choose to act.

    I may be all wet to some in here but, assessing a potential threat and deciding a course of action should always come before reaching for the gun IMO. Acting instinctively with a deadly weapon should be a 'something clearly and without a doubt hit the fan' response. YMMV

    The above intended only to provoke thought and further discussion.
    I have to disagree. Most of the posts say the CCW assessed the situation before drawing a weapon. The incident was something that clearly indicated alarm and the response was to automatically prepare for defense while assessing. In, at least, the original post, if the threat had been real, there would not have been enough time to "stop", "assess", then "prepare" and still be able to defend.

    You have a very valid point in your "what if the other guy was a CCL or LEO", and I really don't have an answer for that. It is probably one of those things we should consider putting into our training, mental preparation... (What if, due to the circumstances, I do draw or almost draw on a good guy or LEO?)
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    Senior Member Array my2cents's Avatar
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    I can see both sides here. You want to have your plan for defense laid out before it's too late, but you don't want to over react. It is a fine line that everyone has to walk when faced with what could be a perceived threat.
    Walk steathly - and carry a big Springfield.

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    Senior Member Array tegemu's Avatar
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    The nice thing about Pocket Carry is that you can have your gun in hand with no one being any wiser. I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II, .45 ACP, in my pocket and have often had it in hand.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf. - George Orwell

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    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Well, I would like to think most LEO's and CCW types would know better than to act in that manner in a dark parking lot coming up on an unknown person. That would prevent reactions like mine for certain and I would never have done what that guy did in a similar setting.

    If I had waited longer to react and he had turned out to be violent I would of faced a guy that out weighed me by 60+ pounds and several inches of reach and 10 years younger in a physical match while trying to defend a handicapped wife and myself between cars in a parking lot. Not my idea of serious recreation! In the shadow of the street light he never saw me reach or really could have. I think over reaction on my part would have been to draw, even to low ready or retention.

    Since I'm sneakin' up on 50 my reactions are slower, I'm physically weaker and arthritis and other problems dictate trying very hard to stay ahead of the defense curve. If I fall behind in a real threat it's not going to be easy to catch back up and despite a background in martial arts I am under no illusions about my chances in a physical confrontation on the street with a guy this size without a weapon. Having to protect someone else would make it even tougher.

    I think it's nice to imagine if it all goes wrong we will magically and swiftly draw on the right guy and swiftly dispatch him to his maker at just the right moment. Street reality is it will probably be very close, very sudden and very ugly. If we have delayed to many fractions of a second we may also be in big time trouble and unable to catch up.

    Another thing is even when going in to full draw my research would indicate most threats end at presentation, but not all. I know you'd like to think that you will have decided to shoot before drawing but if the threat ends on presentation you no longer have the legal right to pull the trigger any more than you can walk up to a wounded attacker who has given up and finish him off with a head shot.

    This is only the first time I've ever touched my gun since I started carrying, I've come close once before during an attempted theft. I once pulled a knife many, many, years ago in pre ccw days while walking with my wife and son near our home. Threat charged out of alley at night, dagger appeared in my hand as I swept family aside and advanced on threat before I knew what happened. Threat rapidly retreated. Again, waiting for a full evaluation would have had possibly dire results.

    If I'm wrong well I'm wrong but I ain't 25 any more!
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to sound overly critical and I don't think anybody was wrong. I think I was reacting to just the mental picture I get when someone says that going to the gun in a seemingly slightly out of ordinary encounter is automatic. That, and I seem to read about a lot of incidents of near-gun experiences in this particular forum. I don't get to carry until 3 Jan here in KS, so I am probably reading a lot into these scenarios for lack of experience.

    From my non-carrying POV, some of this stuff seems like extreme paranoia and trigger-happiness. It makes me worry that too many CCWers think the only way out of a dangerous situation is to employ a gun.

    I have lived most of my life in places where I have not been allowed to carry and have survived a number of potentially threatening encounters without ever thinking of going for a weapon of any kind. To that end, I have employed the hands out front, 'I don't want to fight' and the 'Jack Benny' techniques very successfully. That is not likely to change with me just because the gun will now be on my person.

    I reckon what it boils down to is, and I pray it never comes to this, that I would rather die with a gun stuffed in my pants than to mistakenly shoot an unarmed man in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    From my non-carrying POV, some of this stuff seems like extreme paranoia and trigger-happiness. It makes me worry that too many CCWers think the only way out of a dangerous situation is to employ a gun.
    Well, given that we know the media are quite staunchly not in favor of our CCWing, or our defending ourselves with lethal force, for that matter, IF this were happening with "too many CCWers," I'm sure the papers would be screaming it . . . and they are not. Surely they would be, if given any excuse.

    I reckon what it boils down to is, and I pray it never comes to this, that I would rather die with a gun stuffed in my pants than to mistakenly shoot an unarmed man in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
    . . . Wow.
    I'm confident that not one of us would feel okay with shooting an unarmed man mistakenly, but preferring to die with a gun stuffed into your pants because you failed to properly discern a threat and act accordingly? Not sure I'm with you, there. You know, there are times when even unarmed people act as though they are a threat, and a CCWer might be quite justified in being mistaken that there's a credible threat.

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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    . . . Wow.
    I'm confident that not one of us would feel okay with shooting an unarmed man mistakenly, but preferring to die with a gun stuffed into your pants because you failed to properly discern a threat and act accordingly? Not sure I'm with you, there. You know, there are times when even unarmed people act as though they are a threat, and a CCWer might be quite justified in being mistaken that there's a credible threat.
    ...Wow you quoted me and still got it wrong. I said I would rather die than mistakenly shoot somebody. If I died because I failed to properly identify a threat in time to act it would likely be because I don't grab my gun anytime somebody says, "boo." I reckon my death in that case would be the price for my not living my life like a paranoid kook with a gun.

    That said, I would not necessarily classify that relatively slow response as being patently slow since the gun does not automatically render me invincible or infallible. IOW, having the gun, the quick judgment, and all the training and practice does not mean I will be guaranteed a win in every situation. BGs can get the drop on you even if you have a hand on your gun. Only then, they will know that you have a gun and will use that knowledge to your detriment.

    My whole point really is that deadly force is not going to be required in an incalculably high percentage of the average person's daily encounters. By average person, I mean someone who does not deal drugs, work at a convenience store or bank, or respond to domestic disputes etc... Going for the gun therefore seems to me like it should be well outside of the realm of a conditioned response for Joe Citizen.

    Again, this is just my opinion. How anybody else chooses to behave is not necessarily wrong by my standards. I am just trying to share my thoughts and to learn.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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