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I'm startin' to hate grocery stores!

3K views 24 replies 16 participants last post by  pilot_cir 
#1 ·
Was at the grocery store tonight with the wife. Same one that I posted about where I caught the guy attempting a pickpocket theft on me a few months ago. Got all done and back out to the parking lot. Dark but parked near a street light and misting rain. Did all the good stuff, scanned nobody near by. Got wife installed in truck (she's slightly handicapped) with the groceries and about to lock her in while I move to drivers side. Only people near by now are a BIG guy with two women and a cart coming up our row. He suddenly starts shouting incoherently and comes around the end of my truck.

You know what? That drawing practice works! Door shut and locked, cover garment swept and full grip on 1911 before I realized it. I stopped there because it was quickly obvious he was messing around with what I'm guessing were wife and teen daughter. He never even noticed me or what I was doing! Jeez, clueless and acting kinda stupid and threatening to boot. Maybe I'm paranoid but a few conversations with local LEO's has made me realize what's happening in our once sleepy suburb and more aware than ever.

Keep practicing folks, it works!!!

:theyareontome:
 
#4 ·
So did you carry a light too? Going out a night , I always try to bring a light along. Seems like you handled it well. Gotta wonder about some people just not thinking.(the guy shouting)
 
#6 ·
Yeah, usually got the Surefire G2 but, stupid me, tonight I left it home. If it had been for real I wouldn't of had time to deploy anyways. Hey, I think someone I know is making a new kydex sheath for it too one day in the future!

Only thing I am aware of is that us CCW's being (I hope) more alert and sensitive to ''vibes'' - have to be careful not to over react. Sometimes it's a fine dividing line between what is OK and what isn't.

Getting hand on gun tho - yes - I can see many circumstances where that can occur, and in dark of course it is not too likely your action will be easily seen if in error.
I stopped at the grip because it was quickly obvious he was just screwing around as I focused in on him. He just picked coming around the end of my truck to sound off after seeming pretty peaceable before. No bad vibes up till then but I'm always a little more alert when loading up my wife. Bad timing on the part of a clueless individual and I mean this guy was BIG. Ah, for summer with all that evening sunshine!
:redface:

Edited to add:
I think what was (in a way) a pleasant surprise was I did what I'd always strive to train for without thinking. Moved to protect wife, pulled garment and grabbed weapon while focusing and evaluating level of threat and evaluated correctly. You always wonder but it works!
 
#5 ·
I think I might have done just the same Eric.

Only thing I am aware of is that us CCW's being (I hope) more alert and sensitive to ''vibes'' - have to be careful not to over react. Sometimes it's a fine dividing line between what is OK and what isn't.

Getting hand on gun tho - yes - I can see many circumstances where that can occur, and in dark of course it is not too likely your action will be easily seen if in error.

If it is actually needed then different matter :wink: Stay safe.
 
#7 ·
Amazing how everything just goes into automatic like that isn't it?

I've had a few instances like that myself. Good to know that if the situation calls for it, the reflexes are there isn't it?
 
#8 ·
Scary to think that the man in the parking lot may have been a CCL also or LEO, and seeing you reach for your gun, reach for his own and draw on what he thinks is a BG.

I know I might take some heat for saying it, but honestly, all the talk in here about, "I reached for my gun and it was automatic" sort of makes me a bit apprehensive. If I ever go for mine in defense of myself or another, the only thing that will be "automatic" is the chambering of the next round. That is not for lack of practice. In fact, I practice so that I can act quickly and with precision at the moment I choose to act.

I may be all wet to some in here but, assessing a potential threat and deciding a course of action should always come before reaching for the gun IMO. Acting instinctively with a deadly weapon should be a 'something clearly and without a doubt hit the fan' response. YMMV

The above intended only to provoke thought and further discussion. :bier:
 
#9 ·
I have to disagree. Most of the posts say the CCW assessed the situation before drawing a weapon. The incident was something that clearly indicated alarm and the response was to automatically prepare for defense while assessing. In, at least, the original post, if the threat had been real, there would not have been enough time to "stop", "assess", then "prepare" and still be able to defend.

You have a very valid point in your "what if the other guy was a CCL or LEO", and I really don't have an answer for that. It is probably one of those things we should consider putting into our training, mental preparation... (What if, due to the circumstances, I do draw or almost draw on a good guy or LEO?)
 
#11 ·
The nice thing about Pocket Carry is that you can have your gun in hand with no one being any wiser. I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II, .45 ACP, in my pocket and have often had it in hand.
 
#12 ·
Well, I would like to think most LEO's and CCW types would know better than to act in that manner in a dark parking lot coming up on an unknown person. That would prevent reactions like mine for certain and I would never have done what that guy did in a similar setting.

If I had waited longer to react and he had turned out to be violent I would of faced a guy that out weighed me by 60+ pounds and several inches of reach and 10 years younger in a physical match while trying to defend a handicapped wife and myself between cars in a parking lot. Not my idea of serious recreation! In the shadow of the street light he never saw me reach or really could have. I think over reaction on my part would have been to draw, even to low ready or retention.

Since I'm sneakin' up on 50 my reactions are slower, I'm physically weaker and arthritis and other problems dictate trying very hard to stay ahead of the defense curve. If I fall behind in a real threat it's not going to be easy to catch back up and despite a background in martial arts I am under no illusions about my chances in a physical confrontation on the street with a guy this size without a weapon. Having to protect someone else would make it even tougher.

I think it's nice to imagine if it all goes wrong we will magically and swiftly draw on the right guy and swiftly dispatch him to his maker at just the right moment. Street reality is it will probably be very close, very sudden and very ugly. If we have delayed to many fractions of a second we may also be in big time trouble and unable to catch up.

Another thing is even when going in to full draw my research would indicate most threats end at presentation, but not all. I know you'd like to think that you will have decided to shoot before drawing but if the threat ends on presentation you no longer have the legal right to pull the trigger any more than you can walk up to a wounded attacker who has given up and finish him off with a head shot.

This is only the first time I've ever touched my gun since I started carrying, I've come close once before during an attempted theft. I once pulled a knife many, many, years ago in pre ccw days while walking with my wife and son near our home. Threat charged out of alley at night, dagger appeared in my hand as I swept family aside and advanced on threat before I knew what happened. Threat rapidly retreated. Again, waiting for a full evaluation would have had possibly dire results.

If I'm wrong well I'm wrong but I ain't 25 any more!
 
#13 ·
I didn't mean to sound overly critical and I don't think anybody was wrong. I think I was reacting to just the mental picture I get when someone says that going to the gun in a seemingly slightly out of ordinary encounter is automatic. That, and I seem to read about a lot of incidents of near-gun experiences in this particular forum. I don't get to carry until 3 Jan here in KS, so I am probably reading a lot into these scenarios for lack of experience.

From my non-carrying POV, some of this stuff seems like extreme paranoia and trigger-happiness. It makes me worry that too many CCWers think the only way out of a dangerous situation is to employ a gun.

I have lived most of my life in places where I have not been allowed to carry and have survived a number of potentially threatening encounters without ever thinking of going for a weapon of any kind. To that end, I have employed the hands out front, 'I don't want to fight' and the 'Jack Benny' techniques very successfully. That is not likely to change with me just because the gun will now be on my person.

I reckon what it boils down to is, and I pray it never comes to this, that I would rather die with a gun stuffed in my pants than to mistakenly shoot an unarmed man in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
 
#14 ·
From my non-carrying POV, some of this stuff seems like extreme paranoia and trigger-happiness. It makes me worry that too many CCWers think the only way out of a dangerous situation is to employ a gun.
Well, given that we know the media are quite staunchly not in favor of our CCWing, or our defending ourselves with lethal force, for that matter, IF this were happening with "too many CCWers," I'm sure the papers would be screaming it . . . and they are not. Surely they would be, if given any excuse.

I reckon what it boils down to is, and I pray it never comes to this, that I would rather die with a gun stuffed in my pants than to mistakenly shoot an unarmed man in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
. . . Wow.
I'm confident that not one of us would feel okay with shooting an unarmed man mistakenly, but preferring to die with a gun stuffed into your pants because you failed to properly discern a threat and act accordingly? Not sure I'm with you, there. You know, there are times when even unarmed people act as though they are a threat, and a CCWer might be quite justified in being mistaken that there's a credible threat.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I am in agreement with Lowflyer. We should discern the threat before touching the gun. To discern after touching the gun does seem that one acted prematurely.

The description of the initial scenario is one of a man (albeit large) and 2 women with a shopping cart in a parking lot of a grocery store, and the man gets loud. There is no mention of the relative ages of the women (mother/daughter), whether or not they were acting like a family, if there were actual groceries in their cart, nor was there any mention of there being other cars in the same row of the parking lot. The focus was of a loud, big man. Only after the gun was grabbed was it noticed that it appeared to be a family screwing around. "He never even noticed me or what I was doing! Jeez, clueless and acting kinda stupid and threatening to boot." Criticize the big man for not paying attention to you? Why would he even notice you if he wasn't intentionally threatening you. Seems that if one were in "yellow", then it would have been obvious that the big man was probably focused on his family. Paranoid? Probably.

It is good that drawing practice allowed us to act automatically, but practice should include a lot more than drawing... it should include actually sizing up the situation by using the defensive tool between the ears before ever going for the gun. Just my humble opinion.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I believe there is a place between all of this that is the happy medium. But, I also think some of the stories told here, and what and how people carry and react, may be over the top at times. Reading that some people actually carry three guns on there person at any given time, or take at least four with them on vacation, along with a handful of different knives, I believe that is way over the top for most people. If one isn't enough protection you probably shouldn't be there. Its all in the person though, if they feel they need that or not.

But with this post, since it was night and he didn't see you go for your gun, no harm done. I guess just be even more cautious next time and maybe you will see who's coming and how they are acting, and remember to always have a escape plan for every place you are. and pulling a weapon is the super very last resort.


But After reading some of the "minor" details, If I was in this situation, I would most likely have done the same thing too.
 
#20 ·
Hmmm, maybe I'm not explaining myself and the situation well. Dark parking lot full of cars, parked near light. We practice situational avoidance as much as possible as I have a handicapped wife but life does require things like grocery shopping after work. This means no running, no retreat with her to protect as she can't move that fast. Me, I tend to stay very aware of surroundings, particularly with her to protect. Had seen this guy coming with two females, dark enough to make such fine judgments as age, wedding rings, etc hard to judge. Just finish loading wife and groceries. Guy comes to end of my truck and starts the yelling, aggressive act right at that point near me. I'm pinned in between two cars with someone else beside myself to worry about at a range of about 10 feet who has suddenly started acting aggressive. Oh and wifes door was open at my back so no backing up which would have exposed her anyways. Should I have offered him a beer? A one or two second delay while waiting at this point would would have meant me losing a fight if he meant harm. Luckily he didn't, we are OK and if you didn't get it earlier I have never felt I needed to go this far before with my firearm. Please don't imagine that I just go for my weapon just because someone sneezes, jeesh!

I was in a situation where for just a few moments I was an easy target for trouble and a guy took that moment to act like just that kind of trouble. I guess the problem with trying to describe something like this is you had to be there so I will refrain from doing so in the future. Those who know me well consider me one of the more responsible and level headed people they know. My reactions have kept me and my family alive through 12 years at sea including 1 cat 4 hurricane, 2 cat 2's and 4 cat 1's. Two tornadoes including one direct hit. The south Florida war zone known as the aftermath of Andrew and several third world waterfronts where gunshots at night were just part of the local entertainment and those are just some of the high points! I've not exactly lived a normal, suburban life. I guess I'm trying to say I'm not a greenhorn climbing onto his first bull.

The point of my post really was to try and encourage people to train as my training worked. I moved to protect my wife and myself, took what I believe were prudent steps in the given instant and stopped short in that same instant as things developed without standing around doing a lot of guessing and hand wringing! I'm going to leave this subject alone in the future.
 
#21 ·
Don't get all worried, this site as with others is filled with "Computer Commando's". You perceived a threat, you prepared for attack, threat never transpired, nobody new you drew your weapon, life goes on, no harm no foul. I think you did just fine. I have said this in another post, it is impossible to say "I would do this or that" with a 100% of certainty unless you are actually placed in the situation. So don't let these "Computer Commando's" get you riled up.
 
#22 ·
I think it pays to be aware of your surrondings especially when in a bad area. Iam not going to be trigger happy. Before I hurt An innocent person I would give up ccw. you can become like the deer hunter who takes bush shots. Every thing can be done to excess. Carrying a gun takes a lot of common sense. I have been in some scary situations and have come out ok except two times and this did not require me to shoot . Just the sight of the gun solved the problem. Just use common sense.
 
#23 ·
EL,

I didn't mean to sound critical of your particular situation. My intent was to discuss only the instinctively reaching for a gun thing. It probably could have just as well been a separate thread, but the 'automatic' comments that followed your post sort of got me thinking. I had no idea of the actual circumstances you faced, and certainly don't fault you for feeling threatened. All turned out well and that is what is important.:bier:
 
#25 ·
ELCruisr, your post was important as it started a meaningful discussion. Thinking about your situation and how you reacted let me mentally evaluate how I would react. I also thought Loflyer added to the discussion. His point of view needs to be considered by all us who carry a deadly weapon.

In summary, I would like to think I could have acted as effectively as you did but I won't forget that it is a deadly weapon to be used only as a last resort.
 
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