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The "21 foot" Rule

11K views 130 replies 63 participants last post by  Secret Spuk 
#1 ·
I've heard this mentioned a few times on the forum but never really knew what it was about.
Last night on, "Justified", Raylan was in a standoff with a guy and talked about the "21 foot" rule.

I got curious to see exactly what it was so I found this web site:

21 foot rule or Tueller Drill

It's a short but very interesting article.

"In the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet."

I understand better why LEO's don't fool around with BG's and a knife.
 
#2 ·
I watched that on my DVR last night. I laughed so hard when he fell in the hole....
 
#4 ·
the 21 foot rule has been around for awhile. But I did love it in Justified being mentioned in at least 3 episodes this season by the psycho brother of the Kroll family.

Eric Roberts character in the previous episode toting a GP100 and touting all the glories of a revolver over semi-autos was great. Plus the scene where he told the guy he had three seconds to drop the gun or else. 1...2...3 Blammo! was awesome.

The writers of Justified don't get everything right about guns. But it is obvious that they are appealing to the gun crowd with the lingo and some basic self defense concepts they bring up.
 
#28 ·
Eric Roberts character in the previous episode toting a GP100 and touting all the glories of a revolver over semi-autos was great.
The writers of Justified don't get everything right about guns. But it is obvious that they are appealing to the gun crowd with the lingo and some basic self defense concepts they bring up.
^^^^^^THIS

The scene at the range with the GP100 was awesome!
 
#5 ·
Side note, in the beginning where they show previously... Did they show things that were not broadcast in the last show? There were things I don't remember shown.
 
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#45 ·
You're right, at least in my opinion and experiences. I've heard a lot of comments about how an officer or citizen shouldn't have shot a BG because "he only had a knife". Only a knife? They obviously have no clue just how deadly a knife can be, even in inexperienced hands. When it comes to what scares me more, getting shot or getting stabbed/sliced, it's the knife!
 
#9 ·
We were taught this during our 40 hour MFT years ago and again in my CCL class. It happens very quickly.

In my CCL class it was demostrated that it is nigh impossible to draw from an ankle rig and put a controlled shot on the dirtbag. Out of ten attempts (and these were all young, experienced, current police officers) one shot was made on the approaching dirtbag and the officer was on his back when that occured. The other nine attempts resulted in the officer not even getting the weapon out of the holster or not being able to fire in time.

Think about that the next time you strap on that ankle rig.
 
#15 ·
Key part of that is "recognize" or being unprepared. In this case Raylan had his hand on his gun and had it out when Crow fell in the hole.
 
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#23 ·
Last year the local cops had to fire on a guy coming at them with a knife. All 5 of them emptied their guns into him and were roundly critized by some of the citizens for "excess force".

One of the LEO's actually was cut by the guy but it was minor, thankfully.

So easy to critize when it's not you.
 
#26 ·
I've heard this mentioned a few times on the forum but never really knew what it was about.
Last night on, "Justified", Raylan was in a standoff with a guy and talked about the "21 foot" rule.

I got curious to see exactly what it was so I found this web site:

21 foot rule or Tueller Drill

It's a short but very interesting article.

"In the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet."

I understand better why LEO's don't fool around with BG's and a knife.
Awesome show and awesome outcome for that guy.. Laughed my butt off when that clown hit the hole.. :lolp:
 
#27 ·
I've performed the Tueller drill numerous times and have also engaged targets coming directly at me on a rolling trolley. If nothing else I've learned that 21' is not sufficient separation from a quick, knife-wielding adversary to ensure the attack can be stopped before being injured.
 
#43 ·
Remember that the Tueller Drill is not a training exercise. It's a demonstration. Proves a point.

Definitely worth trying on your own with a partner - play both roles.

What it teaches you is that the effort to become Quickdraw McGraw generally isn't the best use of your time. Oh, sure, do work on a good, swift draw but per the Tueller Drill, learn to get off the X, and prepare for FoF engagement as a more-likely outcome.
 
#44 ·
And that is ONLY if you SEE the threat coming. You need to work on the distance YOU can draw & fire in YOUR firearm the way YOU carry, in reaction to the threat. This is the only way you will know how close is too close for YOU and how YOU carry. There is also training for extreme close shooting which develops skills to fire INSIDE the draw sequence starting at stage 2.
 
#48 ·
I have nothing to do tomorrow so the plan for tonight is to watch the new Vikings episode, start House of Cards binge watching, finish where I fell asleep from tomorrow and then get to Justified. :biggrin2: Hopefully by the afternoon I'll be putting some 7.62x39 down range.
 
#52 ·
As a side note to the Tueller Drill:

The drill often gets taken out of context. The purpose is to show how quickly someone can close a gap on you. It does not show you how a realistic fight will be like if you attacked by a knife or impact weapon. The assailant wants to stack the odds in his favor as much as possible and one way they may do that is try to get as close to you as possible by using distractions such as his language. The blade/impact weapon will likely be concealed. As a result, rather than the assailant letting his intentions be know and displaying a weapon and the attack starting at 21 feet as in the Tueller drill, many knife attacks are launched within or near arms reach. Once the threat initiates the attack many victims report not even aware they were being stabbed until the fight was over because they never even seen the knife.
 
#73 ·
Years ago I saw a guy get stabbed in a bar in NYC. The assailant pulled his knife when very close to his target, stabbed the guy in his side, and was out the door before anyone even knew what happened. No warning at all really. The guy was sitting at the bar, his SA obviously not what it should have been, but it happened so quick that I doubt he would have been able to do anything even if he saw it coming.

And I laughed out loud when the dude fell in the hole on Justified...
 
#55 ·
There is something to learn even if a knife is not involved. Reaction vs action. The average person takes about .75 seconds to see a threat his eyes send the warning to the brain the brain to send a response to the muscle group. You can train and improve that number until you get old like me.

If you decide to engage your action gives you 3/4 second advantage over bad guy. Time and distance is very important. Take an approaching car lets say 25 mph. That car will travel 37.5 feet per second now take 65 mph and multiply by 1.5 and you will have the speed a freeway car can approach you add in your reaction time and it is very easy to misjudge and get hit or shot.

Take some dry erase markers that don't stain see how many times you can mark your partner in .75 seconds. This is where those 800 stitches come from.

WARNING WARNING VERY GRAPHIC DO NOT OPEN IF BOTHERED BY BLOOD AND CUTS.

Fraternal Order Law Enforcement
 
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