First aid after a legitimate shoot?

This is a discussion on First aid after a legitimate shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by denverd0n in most states even a licensed EMT is not required by law to render aid if he or she believes that ...

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Thread: First aid after a legitimate shoot?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
    in most states even a licensed EMT is not required by law to render aid if he or she believes that they would put themselves at risk by doing so.
    As mentioned earlier,
    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    Repeat after me: Scene safety, BSI.
    As an EMT, HECK NO, If my shot was placed where I was aiming my hands would be pushing right into the pool of blood that my CPR would be creating. would i have a face mask to use, probably since it is on my keys. Would I use it, NO, Years ago when I was fresh and green i carried gloves but that fell by the wayside after the first 2 year (yes it took some time to wear off.). I would not try to same the guy because I personally need to protect myself. As an EMT one "rule" is, "Don't go INTO Dodge without the Marshall. " If i am there I am not putting myself into something where I am left open to secondary attack.

    My thoughts

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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    1) Tactical Reload first !!
    2) Call 911, covering the BG until the PD are on scene.
    3) Re-hoslter just as blue lights appear.
    4) Refer to the BG as "perp" "criminal" never "victim"

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FirefighterEd View Post
    These apply as long as you are acting in good faith.
    Proving that in a professional suit can be hard enough, without the complication of the "interpersonal dynamics" of a shoot.

  5. #49
    Member Array TechGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Do you know he's really passed out, not just playing possum? Do you know that he doesn't have a hidden weapon of some sort? Do you know he's not planning to attack you again if you get close enough?

    If it's a justified shoot that this is someone who clearly displayed the intent to cause you (or someone else) severe injury or death. By shooting and disarming him you've removed the visible means for him to carry out this threat, but that doesn't mean that he's truly disarmed and out of the fight. In this circumstance I'd call 911 and keep my distance till police/EMS arrive.

    Saw this on a program about the military. Approach the BG (assume they are on their back) from above their head. Then thump their eye with your finger. NO ONE awake can ignore that pain and will jump. But I would look for other BGs and stay back, call 911 and wait. If I had to shoot, they would not likely ever be in a condition to get back up. (i.e.; Shoot till empty)

  6. #50
    Member Array paknheat's Avatar
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    If a BG needs First aid after a justified shoot , and i am the one who shot him. I believe he/she needs to pray that the EMS people don't get held up in traffic.
    A armed person is a citizen-An unarmed person is a future victim.

  7. #51
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    I used to think so when I first pondered about it. But realized what other people have said, you don't know if he friends waiting around, you don't know if he's just passed out and just when you get near, he wakes up and tries to attack you.

    I have no trouble giving first aid in a traffic accident or kid drowning in a pool or any other incident. My first instinct is if I am there, I can help.

    But during self-defense, I'll let the professionals handle this one.

    I also used to think to shoot-to-wound, luckily I read a lot and I am fast learner, now know better why that's pointless.

  8. #52
    New Member Array golf97's Avatar
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    The Good Samaritan Act protects any damage you cause to a victim in most cases in most places, but it might look awfully strange in front of a judge if you shot him and then harmed him trying to save him.
    SIG P232

  9. #53
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    He just threatened your life? All bleeding will eventually stop. I would be too distraught to render medical attention to a perp.

  10. #54
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    I'll poke up my ugly head to point out another train of thought. Providing aid shows that you care for human life and that your issue that caused you to shoot was with the attacker(s) action(s) (I know its pc but hey we're talking preventing the "red hearing" effect for prosecutor / civil attorney) not with the person you just shot. Its something that we dont see much, but if you know that your safe (safety first) and can provide aid, it sure makes you look good and carring.

    On the topic of the good samaritan laws, they only protect you if you provide aid "within" (key word) the "scope" of your training. If you are not trained to perform a Tracheostomy and you do it you can be sued for it. However if you act within the levels that you have been trained, all 50 states have laws that protect you from suits and allow for counter suits if someone takes you to court (to bad you cant sue the lawyer for their pursuing (often shopping or pushing for) the case.

    I can't tell you what my actions would be in a civil setting, but as an LEO my experience has been to provide aid at the level of my training after a shooting and I am sure of my (others) safety.

    Funny story, back in the late 60s an officer shot a suspect who weilded a machete at him. It took 8 rounds from his issued 38spl to put the suspect down. The officer received a medal for his actions AFTER the shooting because he performed CPR that many witnesses reported (it was a cross racial shooting) and brought alot of community support for the officer. However the note to the story is that when medical support arrived, the suspect had "bleed out" due to the chest compressions. Just goes to show perception is truly in what they see not what you did.

    Ok back to my cage.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    I'll poke up my ugly head to point out another train of thought. Providing aid shows that you care for human life and that your issue that caused you to shoot was with the attacker(s) action(s)
    Be sure to ask the 911 dispatcher what you can do to help the perp.

    That will show you are a good guy. And sure as hell the dispatcher wont ask you to do anything to the perp. Even if so "I think he's still moving" or "I am in fear of him attacking me again"

  12. #56
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    Personaly: If I intentionaly injure some one, my first aid will be limited to checking myself for injurys and calling 911. The last time I looked at the law if you identify yourself as a medic or are on active duty (i.e. EMT on the clock) you have an obligation to render aid up to the limit of your training. If you dont Identify as a medic (i.e. no EMS tags or bumper stickers) you have no obligation, but you do have legal protection (good sameritcan laws) if you descide to render aid, to the limit of your training. The exception to the above is that if _you_ inflicted the injuries in question you have no obligation.

    And for the 'dont get the BG's blood on you' crowd. If you can, take two 1 gallon water jugs to the range, set them up so you will shoot through both of them, and fire one of your favorite hollow points into them. You'll be supprised (or at least I was) at how much back splash you get.
    AE

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fed_wif_a_sig View Post
    The officer received a medal for his actions AFTER the shooting because he performed CPR that many witnesses reported (it was a cross racial shooting) and brought alot of community support for the officer. However the note to the story is that when medical support arrived, the suspect had "bleed out" due to the chest compressions. Just goes to show perception is truly in what they see not what you did.
    That one is an EMS/LE classic , both as a training tool, and a caution. Realistically, the officer well knew what he was doing, and in our present time, he would, at the least, spend significant money to prove he acted in "good faith", not with "malfeasance". As a private citizen, your character will be questioned at least as much as LE in the same situation. Do you have 200 arrests, have you been shot at while rendering aid, have you brought someone out of a burning building above and beyond the call of duty? A solid professional reputation in "street duty" will carry a loooong way. Far longer than stating that you are a service technician who braved a hurricane, or a lab tech who always calls the docs with critical labs (try to get that to translate as "Heroic" to a jury).

    This is much like 9mm vs. .45. My question is: life will be painful and expensive in abundance in the aftermath of a shoot. Why add more basis to question your motives in the final outcome?

  14. #58
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    Food for thought.

    Private citizen and on the job incidents have many similarities and diferences. But my opinion on how the court views rendering first aid is this. The ultimate goal in a lethal force encounter is for the good guy to stop the threat of the bad guy. testosterone aside, if you honestly shoot someone in self defense and hope it results in death, then you have serious issues which will not be fixed with this forum. If the bad guy dies as a result of his injuries, stuff happens. IF you decide to render first aid, you are only showing that you were acting in self defense and not with the deliberate intent to kill.
    With that being said, about four months ago one of my partners was involved in a vehicle chase which ended with the perp being shot multiple times (mortal wounds). Upon termination of the incident, the perp received unsuccessful medical attention by E.M.S., after they arrived on scene. We were busy dealing with injured officers.
    If trouble finds you, fight like the third monkey on the ramp of Noah's Arc.

  15. #59
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    No, your protecting yourself. Guard the perp until help arrives inthe form of people who get paid to do these things.
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
    FIREARMZ FORUM

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by LE743 View Post
    IF you decide to render first aid, you are only showing that you were acting in self defense and not with the deliberate intent to kill.
    That's a very large assumption. While half of those who matter might well see it as laudable, the other half who are aware of practical realities will understand that such a display shows a complete and utter disregard for security and what can happen when a (presumably) still-armed BG is administered first aid at the cost of dropping all tactical advantage to do so.

    A BG downed <> a BG out. If still breathing, he's still a threat. Treat him like a rattlesnake. Putting down your guard and your weapons away while occupying your attention and your hands can get you killed. You don't know if he's armed with another weapon, or two. (There's a reason why LEO's take a BG into custody as a duo. It isn't that difficult to turn the tables on one person.) Playin' possum is deadly, because it works.

    Put it this way: If you're alone on a busy public street when attacked, is it risky to render aid? Perhaps not nearly so much as if you're home with your family members, who are in need of your continued protection. If you get yourself killed due to lax precautions, what will your family members do in the next few moments as the BG now disarms you and comes after them?

    The telephone is a good tool in such situations. Call the cavalry and experts. Let them administer to the BG. In all practical reality, calling for aid will be seen as virtuous as actually personally rendering it despite no skills, without the tactical relinquishing of control involved.

    Caution is due.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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