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First aid after a legitimate shoot?

5K views 63 replies 49 participants last post by  KenpoTex 
#1 · (Edited)
Just as the title says, are we required to administer first aid to the BG after a justified shoot?
Take this scenario,
You shoot BG it is a justified good shoot, you have disarmed him and have called 911 and reported the incident and requested law and medical attention. The BG passes out and stops breathing, you are trained and certified in CPR, the BG is no longer a threat are you under any obligation to help this guy? I say no, but a friend of mine says yes. When I received my CPR training years ago nothing was mention about having a legal obligation to use it, moral maybe but not legal. What do y'all think and what would you do?
 
#29 ·
"911 says that emergency services are on the way."

". . . sure hope they get here in time to keep you from bleeding out. Are ya cold? Yeah, that's blood loss for ya. Hey, it was sure a good idea to try to make me your victim tonight, wasn't it? Heh. Tell the devil his plan sucks."
 
#30 ·
I don't think I am under any legal obligation to render first aid to a bad guy I just had to shoot to save my or my loved ones lives. Period.

I would call 911 and then tell him, if he isn't out cold that aid was on the way and then I would keep him at gun point until I hear the sirens.

When my wife and I were first married and we moved to Norfolk VA (I was in the Navy) I used to tell her that if someone broke into our house that her job was to call the cops and tell them that there was a dead guy in our living room and her husband was yelling at him.

You try to kill or harm me or mine and you give up your right to first aid from me.
 
#32 ·
Some States have good samaritin laws were you are required to render aid at an accident etc... would these apply here?

I don't think they are enforced in Alabama much just something to add to the charges if some one leaves the scene of an accident.

We have some lawyers on this forum maybe one will chime in.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Some States have good samaritin laws were you are required to render aid at an accident etc... would these apply here?
It's a practical impossibility to force someone to save the life of someone who just attempted to take the life of the victim. If someone finds such a law that actually requires such a thing, I'll eat my hat.

"Good sam" laws I've seen almost require that the one being helped is "in the right" and not a violent criminal in the act of being stopped during commission of a crime, for it to have any meaning. To require anything else has no moral grounding and no compelling basis.
 
#33 ·
I'm thinking "NO".

Besides, if he survived, I wouldn't want him suing me for putting a tourniquet on wrong or something.....

OTOH, if he's really worthless, maybe his family would sue me if he survived for being too bad a shot to kill him....

Or if he lived because I provided him with first aid, maybe someone he robs in the future could sue me for not killing him and thus preventing him from hurting them!

Too risky.
 
#36 ·
I reckon - if we do have to go that extra mile and a BG gets shot - it is a case of - ''he invited the confrontation''.

That said there is something in many of us which does prefer to save a life than destroy it - usually!

I changed the title of this thread to ''legitimate'' as against ''good''. Somehow to me no shoot is ''good'' per se. I would rather avoid any!
 
#39 ·
As I've mentioned before in response to this question: DO NOT "render aid". The moment you fire your weapon, you demonstrate a vested interest in terminating the target's life. You WILL have to be able to justify, beyond Standards of Care, every action you take- did the individual you shot die/were they permanantly disabled because of the wound (legally inflicted) or by mal-intent, actions that worsened the injury? I say this as a pre-hospital caregiver- leave the aid to persons with no demonstrable vested interest.

If you want to feel good about yourself, make sure you know when to shoot, and how best to avoid that circumstance. Contemplating other actions is dangerous when you don't fully recognize the consequences.
 
#40 ·
I wouldn't go within 10 feet of him. 1) I'm not a doc, nurse, EMT, or anything medical. I have no clue what to do. I'd probably do more harm than good. 2) He did something that made me draw and fire, and then I'm supposed to try to save his life? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

I'd call 911 and wait.
 
#42 ·
No, there is no obligation to administer first aid despite your training, unless you are in a hospital and then it falls under EMTALA rules/laws. If you did assist and the guy died, well... you shot him in the first place.

Most states have a "good samaritan" law that holds you from liability if you assist and a person dies and you are acting in a responsible and credible manner. If you do things not consistent with the problem, for example, place an emergency "cric" in a person who is breathing well and only has a leg wound you could be in hot water.

If you shot the guy, I'd suggest a call 911 and then wait for the red and blue lights, with your gun holstered and out of sight.
 
#43 ·
It would probably be pretty gratifying if the badguy who just tried to kill you or your family member were lying on the ground, gurgling blood, and begged for help to stop the bleeding.

I think it would be fun to kneel beside him and tell him (I'm picturing Tommy Lee Jones doing his "I... don't... bargain" thing): "Help you? Help you? You just tried to kill us... I want you to die!" Let's see his expression then. Before you fault me for being bloodthirsty, let's remember that we're talking about someone who tried to murder your [wife/daughter/son/self]...
 
#44 ·
It would probably be pretty gratifying if the badguy who just tried to kill you or your family member were lying on the ground, gurgling blood, and begged for help to stop the bleeding.

I think it would be fun to kneel beside him and tell him (I'm picturing Tommy Lee Jones doing his "I... don't... bargain" thing): "Help you? Help you? You just tried to kill us... I want you to die!" Let's see his expression then.
Wow, that doesn't seem so peaceful J.
 
#51 ·
I used to think so when I first pondered about it. But realized what other people have said, you don't know if he friends waiting around, you don't know if he's just passed out and just when you get near, he wakes up and tries to attack you.

I have no trouble giving first aid in a traffic accident or kid drowning in a pool or any other incident. My first instinct is if I am there, I can help.

But during self-defense, I'll let the professionals handle this one.

I also used to think to shoot-to-wound, luckily I read a lot and I am fast learner, now know better why that's pointless.
 
#54 ·
I'll poke up my ugly head to point out another train of thought. Providing aid shows that you care for human life and that your issue that caused you to shoot was with the attacker(s) action(s) (I know its pc but hey we're talking preventing the "red hearing" effect for prosecutor / civil attorney) not with the person you just shot. Its something that we dont see much, but if you know that your safe (safety first) and can provide aid, it sure makes you look good and carring.

On the topic of the good samaritan laws, they only protect you if you provide aid "within" (key word) the "scope" of your training. If you are not trained to perform a Tracheostomy and you do it you can be sued for it. However if you act within the levels that you have been trained, all 50 states have laws that protect you from suits and allow for counter suits if someone takes you to court (to bad you cant sue the lawyer for their pursuing (often shopping or pushing for) the case.

I can't tell you what my actions would be in a civil setting, but as an LEO my experience has been to provide aid at the level of my training after a shooting and I am sure of my (others) safety.

Funny story, back in the late 60s an officer shot a suspect who weilded a machete at him. It took 8 rounds from his issued 38spl to put the suspect down. The officer received a medal for his actions AFTER the shooting because he performed CPR that many witnesses reported (it was a cross racial shooting) and brought alot of community support for the officer. However the note to the story is that when medical support arrived, the suspect had "bleed out" due to the chest compressions. Just goes to show perception is truly in what they see not what you did.

Ok back to my cage.
 
#57 ·
The officer received a medal for his actions AFTER the shooting because he performed CPR that many witnesses reported (it was a cross racial shooting) and brought alot of community support for the officer. However the note to the story is that when medical support arrived, the suspect had "bleed out" due to the chest compressions. Just goes to show perception is truly in what they see not what you did.
That one is an EMS/LE classic , both as a training tool, and a caution. Realistically, the officer well knew what he was doing, and in our present time, he would, at the least, spend significant money to prove he acted in "good faith", not with "malfeasance". As a private citizen, your character will be questioned at least as much as LE in the same situation. Do you have 200 arrests, have you been shot at while rendering aid, have you brought someone out of a burning building above and beyond the call of duty? A solid professional reputation in "street duty" will carry a loooong way. Far longer than stating that you are a service technician who braved a hurricane, or a lab tech who always calls the docs with critical labs (try to get that to translate as "Heroic" to a jury).

This is much like 9mm vs. .45. My question is: life will be painful and expensive in abundance in the aftermath of a shoot. Why add more basis to question your motives in the final outcome?
 
#55 ·
I'll poke up my ugly head to point out another train of thought. Providing aid shows that you care for human life and that your issue that caused you to shoot was with the attacker(s) action(s)
Be sure to ask the 911 dispatcher what you can do to help the perp.

That will show you are a good guy. And sure as hell the dispatcher wont ask you to do anything to the perp. Even if so "I think he's still moving" or "I am in fear of him attacking me again"
 
#56 ·
Personaly: If I intentionaly injure some one, my first aid will be limited to checking myself for injurys and calling 911. The last time I looked at the law if you identify yourself as a medic or are on active duty (i.e. EMT on the clock) you have an obligation to render aid up to the limit of your training. If you dont Identify as a medic (i.e. no EMS tags or bumper stickers) you have no obligation, but you do have legal protection (good sameritcan laws) if you descide to render aid, to the limit of your training. The exception to the above is that if _you_ inflicted the injuries in question you have no obligation.

And for the 'dont get the BG's blood on you' crowd. If you can, take two 1 gallon water jugs to the range, set them up so you will shoot through both of them, and fire one of your favorite hollow points into them. You'll be supprised (or at least I was) at how much back splash you get.
AE
 
#58 ·
Food for thought.

Private citizen and on the job incidents have many similarities and diferences. But my opinion on how the court views rendering first aid is this. The ultimate goal in a lethal force encounter is for the good guy to stop the threat of the bad guy. Testosterone aside, if you honestly shoot someone in self defense and hope it results in death, then you have serious issues which will not be fixed with this forum. If the bad guy dies as a result of his injuries, stuff happens. IF you decide to render first aid, you are only showing that you were acting in self defense and not with the deliberate intent to kill.
With that being said, about four months ago one of my partners was involved in a vehicle chase which ended with the perp being shot multiple times (mortal wounds). Upon termination of the incident, the perp received unsuccessful medical attention by E.M.S., after they arrived on scene. We were busy dealing with injured officers.
 
#60 ·
IF you decide to render first aid, you are only showing that you were acting in self defense and not with the deliberate intent to kill.
That's a very large assumption. While half of those who matter might well see it as laudable, the other half who are aware of practical realities will understand that such a display shows a complete and utter disregard for security and what can happen when a (presumably) still-armed BG is administered first aid at the cost of dropping all tactical advantage to do so.

A BG downed <> a BG out. If still breathing, he's still a threat. Treat him like a rattlesnake. Putting down your guard and your weapons away while occupying your attention and your hands can get you killed. You don't know if he's armed with another weapon, or two. (There's a reason why LEO's take a BG into custody as a duo. It isn't that difficult to turn the tables on one person.) Playin' possum is deadly, because it works.

Put it this way: If you're alone on a busy public street when attacked, is it risky to render aid? Perhaps not nearly so much as if you're home with your family members, who are in need of your continued protection. If you get yourself killed due to lax precautions, what will your family members do in the next few moments as the BG now disarms you and comes after them?

The telephone is a good tool in such situations. Call the cavalry and experts. Let them administer to the BG. In all practical reality, calling for aid will be seen as virtuous as actually personally rendering it despite no skills, without the tactical relinquishing of control involved.

Caution is due.
 
#64 ·
I'm certified in First-aid/CPR/AED (big deal:rolleyes: ) but I'm not going to place myself in a compromising position to administer first-aid to someone who just tried to injure/kill me...Calling 911 is as far as I'll go.
 
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