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First aid after a legitimate shoot?

5K views 63 replies 49 participants last post by  KenpoTex 
#1 · (Edited)
Just as the title says, are we required to administer first aid to the BG after a justified shoot?
Take this scenario,
You shoot BG it is a justified good shoot, you have disarmed him and have called 911 and reported the incident and requested law and medical attention. The BG passes out and stops breathing, you are trained and certified in CPR, the BG is no longer a threat are you under any obligation to help this guy? I say no, but a friend of mine says yes. When I received my CPR training years ago nothing was mention about having a legal obligation to use it, moral maybe but not legal. What do y'all think and what would you do?
 
#2 ·
Do you know he's really passed out, not just playing possum? Do you know that he doesn't have a hidden weapon of some sort? Do you know he's not planning to attack you again if you get close enough?

If it's a justified shoot that this is someone who clearly displayed the intent to cause you (or someone else) severe injury or death. By shooting and disarming him you've removed the visible means for him to carry out this threat, but that doesn't mean that he's truly disarmed and out of the fight. In this circumstance I'd call 911 and keep my distance till police/EMS arrive.
 
#49 ·
Saw this on a program about the military. Approach the BG (assume they are on their back) from above their head. Then thump their eye with your finger. NO ONE awake can ignore that pain and will jump. But I would look for other BGs and stay back, call 911 and wait. If I had to shoot, they would not likely ever be in a condition to get back up. (i.e.; Shoot till empty)
 
#3 ·
Well, I'm not a lawyer but I know enough to be wary of administering First Aid on strangers. Sad but true in this day and age that any family of someone who dies while you had your hands upon him trying to save him can and likely will sue you.
Also it might effect the resultant court case, I can provide no precedent, just a gut feeling that a jury would be less likely to see it as a clear cut case of justification in your mind if you showed what could be perceived as remorse, even if you were only showing compassion.

If it were me I would let the professionals administer the aid and concentrate on remaining safe from any other threat until they arrive, it is possible that while you are bent over him giving CPR his friend stabs you in the back.
 
#41 ·
Well, I'm not a lawyer but I know enough to be wary of administering First Aid on strangers. Sad but true in this day and age that any family of someone who dies while you had your hands upon him trying to save him can and likely will sue you..

Can only speak 100% for VA. but am sure the other 49 states all have a "Good Samaritan" law on the books. These laws prevent you from being sued by providing BASIC first aid or other life saving efforts. These apply as long as you are acting in good faith.
 
#4 ·
I would leave the leaking person alone myself . Shure as shooting if he did go ahead and expire some shyster would try and say i was not satusfied with shooting him but wanted to finish him off by beating on his chest / smothering him.
 
#5 ·
some shyster would try and say i was not satusfied with shooting him but wanted to finish him off by beating on his chest / smothering him.
Good point.

The implications of being seen with your hands on a prone dead guy while you're holding a gun are just a bit too much for me to want to play with.

I'm guessing there are a lot of deaths from ineffective First Aid, not negligence per se but just people 'trying to help'.
 
#7 ·
call for an ambulance the police they will be coming anyway because the medics will not come in until the scene is secure. No you are required to give assist. Stay where you are he probably has friends as most crimes are commited by more than one person. I personnally would not know the condition of the BG until the police tell me as I do not intend to get that close down or not.
 
#8 ·
Just as the title says, are we required to administer first aid to our victim after a justified shoot?
In a justified shoot, the one with the hole in him is NOT the victim; he's the perpetrator. YOU are the victim of his criminal act (or attempted criminal act), or you certainly wouldn't have had justification to employ deadly force.

This is an important distinction. The terms you use when interviewed are going to follow you around (right into the DA's office and the courtroom). You feel horrible about having to shoot that criminal, but his relentless aggression left you fearing for your life and the lives of others and you had no other choice.
 
#9 ·
Just as the title says, are we required to administer first aid to our victim after a justified shoot?
Take this scenario,
You shoot BG it is a justified good shoot, you have disarmed him and have called 911 and reported the incident and requested law and medical attention. The BG passes out and stops breathing, you are trained and certified in CPR, the BG is no longer a threat are you under any obligation to help this guy? I say no, but a friend of mine says yes. When I received my CPR training years ago nothing was mention about having a legal obligation to use it, moral maybe but not legal. What do y'all think and what would you do?
I think your friend has watched too much TV.:scratchchin:

I don't believe you owe the perp anything more than a call to 911.
 
#10 ·
Safe Scene

No EMS provider of any level of training should be administering CPR without gloves and some kind of barrier like a CPR mask. Preferably with a face shield or eye protection also. There is no such thing as Mouth-to-Mouth CPR anymore. Catch some AIDS or Hepatitis C from that BG and you are just as dead. As all us EMTs, Medics, and firefighters here will tell you, providing care without the proper equipment is just not the standard of care, and is totally defensible in a court. That not counting the risk of a BG faking or just plain being not-as-injured as you think. Also hard to watch your back during a good round of CPR. Better to stay alert to look for additional threats, as well as the arriving cops so you can safely surrender the scene to them. That will secure the scene quicker and get that BG the EMS help he needs that much quicker.:tired:

Repeat after me: Scene safety, BSI.
 
#15 ·
No EMS provider of any level of training should be administering CPR without gloves and some kind of barrier like a CPR mask. Preferably with a face shield or eye protection also. There is no such thing as Mouth-to-Mouth CPR anymore. Catch some AIDS or Hepatitis C from that BG and you are just as dead. As all us EMTs, Medics, and firefighters here will tell you, providing care without the proper equipment is just not the standard of care, and is totally defensible in a court. Repeat after me: Scene safety, BSI.

I would not give first aid to a BG that I shot out of fear that he would still be a threat.

But, on aside, there is NOT a single case of a person catching HIV or hep C from giving mouth-mouth (source - newest ACLS book). While I would advise everyone to use a mask if one is possible, to let (a good person - not a shot BG) die because you are scared about the 1 in a billion chance of catching something is a personal choice, but lets not scare people. There's no real risk of getting HIV from mouth to mouth - the viral load in saliva is just so low. You need to be bleeding bad from the mouth and so do they - the odds of that are very low and that's why it has never happened.

Gloves for CPR? Again, yes they are nice and health care providers should obviously wear them - but for the person on the street? Here's another reality check: many studies have shown that up to 50% medical gloves have holes in them. That's reality - wash your hands and cover up cuts.

I know alot of these scare tactics come from Unions scared about liability (and that's fine for the pros), but lets not scare people, lets stick to real facts.
 
#11 ·
I would not touch the assailant or even try to help him. You do not know if he has other criminal friends with him or what amount of fight he has left in him. If he is bleeding he might have a disease. It can also have an effect on the court case as Alias said, the lawyer may say you planted a gun on him, or a knife, or the drugs they found on him because you interfered with the crime scene and evidence.

Stay away and call 911.
 
#28 ·
+1

At best I might say to the BG; "911 says that emergency services are on the way".
Aside from that I'm not touching the BG(s) nor am I getting withint grab/grapple reach of him/them either.
Wounded animals will play possum.

- Janq
 
#12 ·
Bad Guys have friends, how do you know someone isn't just waiting for you to be distracted. Besides anyone that saw the action happen might just think if you went to help him that you were going to finish the job. Murder one?. Just leave him alone, if he dies it was his fault not yours.
 
#13 ·
Personally, I wouldn't touch a person that caused me reason to have to shoot the individual.

There is nothing on the books in NC that says you have to that I have read.
 
#16 ·
The LAST thing you want after the shoot is to be doing ANYTHING, other than waiting for LE to arrive and ID you as a good guy. You should be insuring that there are no other threats in the immediate area, secure your weapon and await the LEO's. Your attention should be directed more towards witnesses on your behalf than the BG leaking out on the street. His life may be over, but yours is moving forward and THINK of what you need to do to make that happen.
 
#17 ·
I Would Only Call 911...

and request officer assistance...I wouldn't want to know anything about the condition of the 'perp...nor would I check...:hand1:

If you attack me or mine...your criminal intentions may cost you dearly...I will feel no obligation to assist you in any way...:nutkick:

OMO...your opinion may be more liberal...

ret:comeandgetsome:
 
#18 ·
Personally, while CPR certified and First Aid trained, I would not. As I was told some years ago, if you DO decide to administer first aid/CPR, you are in many states, required to continue to do so until relieved by competent personnel. (This was stated relative to the liability laws in Virginia at the time, being a volunteer firefighter.) If this is still true, in my mind, it would place me in a position of liability if there were another attacker waiting in the wings.

However, I have also been told (IANAL) that most states have enacted "Good Samaritan" laws to protect doctors, paramedics, EMT's, and helpful citizens who decide to help, as long as they are acting in good faith within the limits of their training and abilities.

Another way to look at it, in my opinion, is that it would alleviate any claims that you were just out to shoot someone, wanted to kill them, etc, by trying to render aid after the shooting. My thought is that it would garner some "Brownie points" in the media reports, police reports, etc.

Just my opinions on a couple of ways to look at it. Again, personally, I would not. As it was told to us in regards to a scene where an officer and a dirtbag were both shot, both were still alive, the paramedics are required to assist both the wounded officer and the wounded dirtbag, but nothing says which one they have to attend to and transport first.
 
#19 ·
Can't know if he's playing "possum" or not. If still breathing and not in "chains" in custody of LEO's, he's still a threat. If I were a BG, playing "possum" would be first on my mind, at this juncture. Can't imagine any law would demand a victim give up 100% of all tactical superiority to get into a compromising position of being weaponless and administering first aid. Still, there's demand and there's reality. Fortunately, where I live there is no such tactical bait-and-switch asked of victims.

What would I do? My obligation is to the GG's that have just been victimized; they survive, no matter the cost to the BG. His path to healing lies through a doctor's hands and the penitentiary, not mine.
 
#21 ·
Thanks Y'all, I spent over an hour after this post going over every law I could find and nothing was present. Everything that was mentioned here is what I told my friend, I would stay away from the guy, making sure the area was secure and let the law and EMT save the guy, if possible. His claim was that if you were trained in CPR, along with this training came a responsibility to administer such first aid if it presented itself. He is from the bleeding heart yankee pont of view (no offense to you Northerner's). This was one of those debates that come up that only a random forum like this can help solve. Thanks for the input. While I would agree the AIDS is not likely to be transmitted through saliva, but if I did my job proberly the BG will have a huge hole bleeding immensly and that can easily lead to infection, just takes a small open wound, which I usually have on my hands somewhere.
Thanks Again
 
#22 ·
Even the NRA in its various publications advise against administering first aid due to the "Possum" effect. I would not if it were me. I would simply call 911 and keep an eye on him. NRA goes as far as advising against even allowing a bystander to administer aid until the proper authorities arrive. Disturbing crime scene, destroying eveidence and the like.

Thanks
MikeV
 
#23 ·
Is the BG naked? No? Then how do I know he doesn't have another weapon on him, and that he's not just pretending to be unconscious?

Sorry, I can't risk my life to save the life of someone who just was threatening or trying to end mine.

Besides, the way I read "good shoot" is "dead BG."
If he's still alive, not so "good." :icon_neutral:
 
#24 ·
It depends. If it happened in my home, I would do everything I could to keep the BG from bleeding on my carpet. Otherwise, I may offer words of encouragement to the BG, like "head into the darkness" or "follow the warmth"

Really though, I dont think your under any obligation to provide first aid. As a LEO, I have to if possible as it was a part of my training. However, as I stated in another thread, first aid and medic stuff is not one of my strong points, and it may take me awhile to gather my self enough to render first aid.
Its a hard call to make until your in that position.
 
#25 ·
NCHornet said:
His claim was that if you were trained in CPR, along with this training came a responsibility to administer such first aid if it presented itself.
Of course, laws vary from state to state, but I don't know of any state where this is even close to being true. In fact, in most states even a licensed EMT is not required by law to render aid if he or she believes that they would put themselves at risk by doing so.

Now, I suppose you could argue that there is a moral obligation to try to help when you can, but a legal requirement? Absolutely not!
 
#46 ·
in most states even a licensed EMT is not required by law to render aid if he or she believes that they would put themselves at risk by doing so.
As mentioned earlier,
Repeat after me: Scene safety, BSI.
As an EMT, HECK NO, If my shot was placed where I was aiming my hands would be pushing right into the pool of blood that my CPR would be creating. would i have a face mask to use, probably since it is on my keys. Would I use it, NO, Years ago when I was fresh and green i carried gloves but that fell by the wayside after the first 2 year (yes it took some time to wear off.). I would not try to same the guy because I personally need to protect myself. As an EMT one "rule" is, "Don't go INTO Dodge without the Marshall. " If i am there I am not putting myself into something where I am left open to secondary attack.

My thoughts
 
#27 ·
Sixto's 1st paragraph is too funny.

I don't think I would be helping anyone out that I shot. I would stay and make sure help could arrive but that is all I would feel obligated to do. Like previous posters, it could open a can of worms that a DA would love to get a hold of.
 
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