Saw this on Court TV tonight

This is a discussion on Saw this on Court TV tonight within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Once someone has started a criminal act, there is no way to predict what will happen from that point forward. Some points to ponder: 1) ...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 35

Thread: Saw this on Court TV tonight

  1. #16
    Member Array AZ Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chandler, AZ
    Posts
    78

    A LOT of variables.

    Once someone has started a criminal act, there is no way to predict what will happen from that point forward. Some points to ponder:

    1) When you're in close proximity to someone in the process of committing an armed crime, you are in grave danger no matter which way the BG is facing. Just because the BG is facing and pointing a gun at the clerk doesn't guarantee that a half second later you won't be looking down the same barrel. The human body can spin and pivot very quickly.

    2) Attempting to leave may draw attention to you. Usually not good attention.

    3) If you stay, you're a witness. Some BG's don't care for witnesses.

    4) If he has an accomplice (BG #2) in the store with him, that accomplice may shoot you if you shoot BG #1.

    5) If you shoot, the BG may still get some shots off anyway.

    6) If you DON'T shoot, the BG may still get some shots off anyway.

    All of the above is simply meant to illustrate some of the variables and reiterate that nothing is black and white or etched in stone when it comes to handling a situation like this. However, discussing it and thinking it through makes you more prepared in the event that it ever happens to you.

    Lastly, once the BG fires the first shot, I'm not sure you have any choice except to engage unless you are very close to an escape route. Anybody that says or thinks that they would not feel that their life were in jeopardy with shots be fired nearby, regardless of the direction, is either lying or in need of therapy.
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Middle Earth
    Posts
    1,221
    I think I would have acted had the opportunity presented itself. The very fact that the BG was pointing what appeared to be a gun at the clerk during the commission of a crime would be legal justification for the use of deadly force in my state. My personal ROE are such that I would go through the assumed legal hassle and substantial personal risk to save another's life. I certainly hope that somebody would do the same for me.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  4. #18
    Member Array newmexiglock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by raysheen View Post
    my first concern...getting my family out. My gun is for me and mine first everyone else comes in a very distant second place. NOT to say that I wouldn't have gotten my gun out as I backed away...really hard to say how it would go down though...just too many variables to give a real accurate answer I think.

    If I thought I had to shoot the guy to get out of the store safely then so be it...
    Well said. I do not carry my gun for my community, I carry it for my family 1st and foremost. This is an option that all have. I do not think that my gun needs to be the 2nd gun displayed unless my life is directly threatened. Perhaps my idea is just narrow thinking, but I do not carry for my neighbor.
    America should have license to carry "children" laws...

    Mooo

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Middle Earth
    Posts
    1,221
    Wow. You guys are hard core. What if that were your teenage son/daughter being held at gunpoint and your superman self was not there? Wouldn't you want a stranger to intervene if there was a chance it would prevent your loved one from dying?
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  6. #20
    Member Array newmexiglock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    What if that were your teenage son/daughter being held at gunpoint and your superman self was not there? Wouldn't you want a stranger to intervene if there was a chance it would prevent your loved one from dying?
    Would I hope that someone would intervene?... Sure, but it would be his/her own personal choice and their assessment of the situation as to whether (s)he gets involved, just as it would be for me. It is my duty to protect my children, not someone elses. This is the risk of having children... losing them, but not just to violence, but also: drugs, Phish, bad influences, cults, extreme religions, politics, snooty lifestyles, etc... The best protection for children is building their intracranial defensive mechanisms and their self esteem (for the latter stuff).
    America should have license to carry "children" laws...

    Mooo

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array jlstorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    36
    I have made the decision to only defend myself and my loved ones because the legal system as made it so difficult to defend others...for this situation here is my reasoning:

    1. I cannot afford the legal defense if charges were filed, especially for a stranger.
    2. Shots to the body may stop the BG but possibly not before he has a chance to return fire
    3. A head shot may over penetrate into the clerk.
    4. I cannot afford the civil suite that would be filed by the BG's family
    5. The clerk should have been armed! Why is it my responsibility to protect those to foolish too protect themselves...if I wanted that lifestyle I would have become a cop.


    Now, in THIS situation I would not have shot BEFORE the BG started unloading on the clerk, however since the clerk is already down number 3 is no longer a problem, and I would be pretty certain I was next on the list and I would rather loose all my stuff in a civil suite than loose my life. Would I feel guilt for not saving the clerk..I dont know...but again, when the BG family is out to get me and the DA may be out to get me, why should I protect someone that refused to protect themselves? I dont know maybe Im just an .........
    Last edited by rocky; January 7th, 2007 at 07:20 PM. Reason: language

  8. #22
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    East Tennessee
    Posts
    248
    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    Wow. You guys are hard core. What if that were your teenage son/daughter being held at gunpoint and your superman self was not there? Wouldn't you want a stranger to intervene if there was a chance it would prevent your loved one from dying?
    I agree 100%! When the dirtbag made a deadly threat, then too bad for him. I am not going to just stand by and let ANY innocent third party get shot by some lowlife dirtbag the world would be better off without. I have some things that weigh on my conscience, but THAT is NOT going to be one of them. If it is my wife/son/daughter/mother in that situation, I pray that someone will have the courage to do what is needed.

    As far as how would I respond, when the gun came out toward the clerk, then he gets close up, rapid, multiple gunshot wounds without warning unless I can get him to turn the gun on me... then he gets to see it coming.
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Middle Earth
    Posts
    1,221
    Quote Originally Posted by Only Glock View Post
    I agree 100%! When the dirtbag made a deadly threat, then too bad for him. I am not going to just stand by and let ANY innocent third party get shot by some lowlife dirtbag the world would be better off without. I have some things that weigh on my conscience, but THAT is NOT going to be one of them. If it is my wife/son/daughter/mother in that situation, I pray that someone will have the courage to do what is needed.

    As far as how would I respond, when the gun came out toward the clerk, then he gets close up, rapid, multiple gunshot wounds without warning unless I can get him to turn the gun on me... then he gets to see it coming.
    Looks like we're in the minority. Personal liability be damned. My life wouldn't be worth a crap after that sort of thing anyway. Especially, if I cowered while an innocent was harmed. I simply couldn't live it down knowing that I had the means to intervene and did nothing. I reckon some folks just have more of a belly for that sort of thing.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  10. #24
    Member Array Harold Green's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Salt Lake City, Utah
    Posts
    132
    This has been an interesting thread to follow. Several of you have said your first priority would be to get yourself, and those you feel you have a personal responsibility to protect, out of harmís way without engaging the bad guy. Although thatís what I would most likely do, Iím surprised so many others would, and Iíll tell you why.

    I while back I was running evening pistol shoots using IDPA rules at a local indoor range. I designed a course of fire for one of these shoots that was similar to the scenario being discussed in this thread. During the walkthrough we had a discussion that hit on many of the same points touched on here. At the end of the discussion, I asked if all the folks who would choose to shoot the bad guy would stand on the south side of the range bay an all the folks who would not shoot, but escape the scene would stand on the north side. At the time I expected to have a fair number of folks end up on the north side of the bay. Out of about thirty shooters (the great majority of whom carried firearms for self defense) not one person moved to the north. Every last one chose to shoot the bad guy, and thatís OK.

    Hereís why itís OK. I think it is a very good idea for all of us to ponder these kinds of scenarios and develop our own personal rules of engagement before weíre actually in a sticky situation. However, I think each of us should be able to exercise free will in determining what his or her personal rules of engagement should be. One size does not and should not fit all. The essence of a free society is the ability of those living in it to exercise free will in determining what they should do. Just because a course of action is right for you doesnít make it right for everyone else. Each of us has a different set of moral priorities and we should have the latitude to follow a course of action consistent with our own priorities.
    "A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does, he needs it very badly!" -- Sir Winston Churchill

    "He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that is where he is." -- James Thurber

  11. #25
    Member Array newmexiglock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Green View Post
    One size does not and should not fit all. The essence of a free society is the ability of those living in it to exercise free will in determining what they should do. Just because a course of action is right for you doesnít make it right for everyone else. Each of us has a different set of moral priorities and we should have the latitude to follow a course of action consistent with our own priorities.
    I like your style, Mr. Green.
    America should have license to carry "children" laws...

    Mooo

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    2,147
    I've been thinking about this, and I think there is another interesting angle. What do you do if the BG goes ahead and shoots the clerk?

    Do you shoot him immeaditely, without waiting for him to turn around and pose a more direct threat to you? Do you continue to wait to see whether the BG's next move is to point his gun at you, shoot the clerk again, run away, etc.? Does the fact that he just shot someone in front of you provide sufficent legal justification for you to shoot him?

  13. #27
    Member Array Dihappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    272
    Originally Posted by Only Glock
    I agree 100%! When the dirtbag made a deadly threat, then too bad for him. I am not going to just stand by and let ANY innocent third party get shot by some lowlife dirtbag the world would be better off without. I have some things that weigh on my conscience, but THAT is NOT going to be one of them. If it is my wife/son/daughter/mother in that situation, I pray that someone will have the courage to do what is needed.

    As far as how would I respond, when the gun came out toward the clerk, then he gets close up, rapid, multiple gunshot wounds without warning unless I can get him to turn the gun on me... then he gets to see it coming.

    Looks like we're in the minority. Personal liability be damned. My life wouldn't be worth a crap after that sort of thing anyway. Especially, if I cowered while an innocent was harmed. I simply couldn't live it down knowing that I had the means to intervene and did nothing. I reckon some folks just have more of a belly for that sort of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    Looks like we're in the minority. Personal liability be damned. My life wouldn't be worth a crap after that sort of thing anyway. Especially, if I cowered while an innocent was harmed. I simply couldn't live it down knowing that I had the means to intervene and did nothing. I reckon some folks just have more of a belly for that sort of thing.
    Me three. If there arent going to be others on the jury who feel as i do about the situation, then so be it, but i would hope that they would understand why i had to shoot the idiot.

  14. #28
    Member Array Vermicious_Canid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    36
    I would shoot the robber, and keep shooting him until he was no longer a threat. The law, in Ohio, says I'm allowed to use deadly force to prevent myself or any other innocent person from suffering great bodily injury or death. The fact that he pointed a gun at the clerk authorizes me or anyone else to shoot him.

    If his parents want to sue me for killing the product of their laziness. I'll sue them for creating the product, and putting me and other innocent people in danger.

  15. #29
    GPS
    GPS is offline
    Member Array GPS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    104
    While there are some instances where you can't tell the good guy from the bad guy without a program, in this situation, the BG is clearly identified. If he can be engaged without inocent parties in the line of fire, the dude should become Swiss cheese.
    Cordially,
    GPS

    Visit U.S. Concealed Carry - The Ultimate Resource for the Armed Citizen http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/inde...ffID=GStrecker

  16. #30
    Member Array Beees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Irrigon,Or
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by jlstorm View Post
    I have made the decision to only defend myself and my loved ones because the legal system as made it so difficult to defend others...for this situation here is my reasoning:

    1. I cannot afford the legal defense if charges were filed, especially for a stranger.
    2. Shots to the body may stop the BG but possibly not before he has a chance to return fire
    3. A head shot may over penetrate into the clerk.
    4. I cannot afford the civil suite that would be filed by the BG's family
    5. The clerk should have been armed! Why is it my responsibility to protect those to foolish too protect themselves...if I wanted that lifestyle I would have become a cop.


    Now, in THIS situation I would not have shot BEFORE the BG started unloading on the clerk, however since the clerk is already down number 3 is no longer a problem, and I would be pretty certain I was next on the list and I would rather loose all my stuff in a civil suite than loose my life. Would I feel guilt for not saving the clerk..I dont know...but again, when the BG family is out to get me and the DA may be out to get me, why should I protect someone that refused to protect themselves? I dont know maybe Im just an .........
    I think your WAY OFF BASE. Why carry at all outside of your home. After all the "BG" only wants $$$$ and will take anybody's life to get them. No sense carrying,because you won't stand up for law and order.
    Let them run over you. By the time you find out that your next on the shot list:unless your faster on the draw then tv /movie actors: YOUR DEAD or seriously wounded.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. San Diego Court Rules Against Concealed Carry - NRA to Appeal to 9th Circuit Court
    By LanceORYGUN in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: January 6th, 2011, 11:44 PM
  2. What's everyone doing tonight?
    By jkvan87 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: March 15th, 2009, 06:56 AM
  3. US Supreme Court Over Rules Bush and The World Court (Merged)
    By Sig 210 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: March 28th, 2008, 08:56 PM
  4. So I go out to eat tonight
    By XD in SC in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: December 23rd, 2006, 03:37 PM