January 5th, 2007 02:55 AM
Saw this on Court TV tonight
On the show "Most Shocking", tonight the subject was Most Shocking Robberies and hold ups.
One in particular showed a female standing at the counter of a convenience store paying for a purchase. As she stands there a male walks up beside her and points a snubbie revolver at the clerk and demands the money from the register. She backs straight up away from the robber and he stays focused on the clerk. He then starts shooting the clerk all the while staying focused on the clerk to the point that she can run away from the scene without the robber even knowing she had left.
My thinking as I was watching this on the Nordictrack was, if she had a CCW she was in a perfect position to shoot the scum bag as soon as she backed up and was directly behind him. But of course, she had no gun.
Now, my question to you guys is this: if this situation happened to you, you were in the place of the female customer, would you wait until after the robber fired the first shot to shoot him? And, would the fact that you would have to shoot him in the back influence your actions at all? Would you tell him to drop the gun or say anything at all?
For me, the moment the scum bag pulled the gun and demanded the money in the register, I would have felt in danger of being killed or at the very least seriously injured. And if he was stupid enough to let me back up and get into a perfect tactical position like that, he is history. I draw and shoot until the threat is completely neutralized. I also would not say a word. Telling him to drop the gun or any other verbal command would just point me out as a target and start a gun fight at arms reach distance.
How do you guys feel about it?
January 5th, 2007 03:39 AM
IF I were to pull and shoot I would want to back up and go away from his gunhand, making sure that the cashier was out of the line of fire. A drawn gun is a threat whether or not it's loaded or an Airsoft, you may have a lot of tap dancing to do if you shoot him the back, but it would depend on how things played out whether or not I shoot him
"[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
They are left in full possession of them."
Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
January 5th, 2007 06:46 AM
I saw the same show and thought the same thing.
Double tap to the back of the head.
There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those that don't.
January 5th, 2007 07:26 AM
I also saw this film clip. Very scary, and I noted the criminal was still at large.
She was a small woman- that was why the perp let her back away, and ignored her. If it had been a guy, I do not think the scenario would have played out quite the same. But certainly you would be justified in intervening at the time of your choosing. He was commiting an armed robbery, and in Alabama, that constitutes the grave threat to allow you to shoot him immediately. I really think you would have an obligation to intervene- and it was pure luck the clerk was not killed.
Six for sure...Uh, I mean Five. Five for sure..
January 5th, 2007 07:43 AM
As always it would really depend on the situation. Not to sound like a jerk, but the clerk wouldn't be my first concern...getting my family out asap would be. Sometimes I go into stores like this while holding my son. If that were the case then I would just leave and not draw attention to myself. My gun is for me and mine first everyone else comes in a very distant second place. NOT to say that I wouldn't have gotten my gun out as I backed away...really hard to say how it would go down though...just too many variables to give a real accurate answer I think.
If it was just me with no family in the area then I think it could go down very differently, but as I'm a "stay at home dad" I almost always have my son with me and he comes first. If I thought I had to shoot the guy to get out of the store safely then so be it...if shooting the guy slows me down and I feel the safest action for my son and myself it to "sneak" out the back door then that's what I'm doing.
January 5th, 2007 10:42 AM
I agree that every variable in any scenario will affect how that scenario plays out.
I did not see the video but, it sounds like the perp made an intuitive (and correct) judgment call that the female patron of small stature was absolutely no threat to him, and was therefore able to focus 100% of his attention on his deed.
I doubt that the situation would have played out the exactly the same way if the customer was a large burly male.
If there was a possibly threatening male standing in line then it's possible that the BG would have waited until that customer exited before even going in.
Had the cashier seemed more of a threat to him then it's possible that the perp would have started shooting immediately on his way in without any hesitation at all.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
January 5th, 2007 01:19 PM
I saw that show.
Police said they thought it wasn't an actual robbery but a "hit" because the clerk was going to court the next day to testify about a previous robbery. If the BG was intent on killing him, what's killing a witness? Of course in that incident you would not have that knowledge anyway. All I gotta say if a BG pulls a gun and turns his back to me like that, in that type of situation. Then that will be a decision he will live to regret ... (for about 30 seconds that is.)
A LTTLE TRAINING IS A DANGEROUS THING ....
January 5th, 2007 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by falkon
In Virginia, it's legal to defend, with lethal force, the life of a third party. In all honesty, if I just left the store (and that man to die), I would feel horrible. So, goodbye, BG.
January 5th, 2007 02:47 PM
Two things could have caused this miscreant to ignore the woman:
1) Tunnel vision- he was so focused on the cash register & the person who could help/hinder him in his quest for loot, that he just didn't see her.
2) Saw NO threat- he saw her & thought CORRECTLY, that she was not a threat to him.
If it was the former, bad for him, ONLY if a GG had been around. This would have allowed a GG to rid this world of a piece of garbage.
If it was the later, again bad for him, while ignoring this NON-threat who could have turned out to be a threat to. HOWEVER, if instead of being a woman, what if it was a man? He may have not ignored him & shot him first.
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper
January 5th, 2007 03:06 PM
This situation illustrates why you should formulate your personal ďrules of engagementĒ for when you are willing to use deadly force before you are in a high-stress, time-critical situation. I didnít see the show, but I would guess there were only a very few seconds in which you would have to make a decision that could very well change the rest of your life.
When you formulate your personal rules of engagement, there are some things you should probably take into consideration.
Even if you do everything just exactly right, you will likely be sued by the bad guyís family, and thereís a real possibility you may be criminally charged. You may end up on the hook for several tens of thousands of dollars just in legal fees, and you may spend some time in jail. Iíd be a little surprised if the clerk would be willing to help out with your expenses, and I know the clerk would not be able to serve jail time for you.
If you are criminally charged your employer may fire you. He may even fire you if you are not criminally charged, if you end up taking a significant amount of time off work to appear in civil court.
The legal proceedings you might have to deal with could last for years and take a heavy toll on your marriage. Your marriage might not survive this, some donít.
When you formulate your personal rules of engagement, you may want to take these kinds of things into consideration. I have, and Iíve formulated a list of the folks Iím willing to defend with deadly force. Itís a very short list, and, except for very extraordinary circumstances, the clerks at all of the gas stations and convenience stores in my local area arenít on it.
You may think Iím being a little unrealistic with this. Iím not. I watched someone very near and dear to me go through this very thing when she used a firearm to defend her own life.
Oh, hereís something else to ponder. Prior to the bad guy shooting the clerk, do you really know heís going to shoot the clerk? What if you shoot him in the back before heís fired a shot? Aew you going to be able to convince the judge and/or jury that he really was going to shoot? His lawyer (if he survives, and most folks shot with handguns do) and/or his familyís lawyer will make sure you have to explain this.
If you wait until heís actually shot the clerk, isnít it a little too late?
"A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does, he needs it very badly!" -- Sir Winston Churchill
"He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that is where he is." -- James Thurber
January 5th, 2007 03:13 PM
I saw the same show, some real dirt bags on this show!! As for what I would do, can't exactly say? Not sure how you would convince a jury you were afraid of your life when the guy had his back to you, although I think most folks would feel justified in caping the BG this is one of thise "What If's " that could go either way.
When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
January 5th, 2007 03:22 PM
In most states, you are legally justified in using deadly force to protect others from the threat of severe bodily injury or death, not just yourself. However, as Harold said, we each have to decide for ourselves whether it's wise to do so for a complete stranger.
Originally Posted by NCHornet
January 5th, 2007 03:58 PM
In my state of MN you are justified in portecting a third party. I would make some statement to the BG first as I think having his back to you may put you in a slightly less justifiable position. You always run the risk of being sued thanks to the lawyers in this country, but I just can't let some innocent person die if I can prevent it.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
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January 5th, 2007 05:11 PM
I saw the same show while doing the same thing!! (actually, I bought my wife an eliptical trainer for Christmas and I was on it instead of a Nordic Track, but close enough...)
Yup, shoot him in the head.
And I wouldn't need a double tap, either.
January 5th, 2007 09:23 PM
I'll Take "Falkon's" Answer...
Originally Posted by falkon
"If you were armed and placed in the position of the female customer, what would you do?"
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