Another video to learn from

[NCHornet]

Here is another video. When I first watched it I wondered why the one cop didn't shoot the BG in the head when the he pointed the small caliber handgun directly at his partner? However after reading more about this story, the BG didn't have a gun at all, it was a cal phone that he was using as if it were a handgun. Obviously, by the reaction of the LEO's they believed it was a gun also, and therefore my first question still stands, but this brings up a good "What If". If a BG raises a silver elongated object in a manner as if to fire a weapon and we shoot, and it turns out it was a cal phone, we better be able to prove to others that if they were placed in the same scenario that they too would feel in imminent danger. See for yourself and ask the question "What If", then "What happens after"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKmQFu8xiTM

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Go Glock]

I am not sure what a "Cal phone" is but you can see the spent casing flying through the air when the BG turned around and shot.

[TPO]

I am sorry someone died. I am even more sorry that two LEO's now have to live with the fact of using deadly force. I could find no fault as to their reactions and if they were in my department I would stand beside them. There is no joy in killing someone or shooting someone. There is only a overwhelming sense of gratitude and relief at still be alive---and the gut wrenching lump in your gut knowing "everyone and their dog" will be reviewing your actions from the safety of "after the fact analysis paralysis". I can only guess that the dead individual wasn't shot at the first swing of his arm was because the responding LEO didn't have a clear shoot and clear background. Leo's are held accountable for all bullets fired from their own firearms....unlike the BG's who do not care. There is a possibility that this individual was committing suicide by cop.
Good post, as most on this site are.....gives much food for thought and contemplation as to our responsibilities for carrying.

[Gelicious]

Man, that was intense. Notice how many shots it actually took to drop him? That freaked me out. I dont know what caliber they were shooting with but it took one full mag from one cop and three shots from another and he was still upright. then full drop to the floor.

And for some reason he decided to shoot! I mean he knew he was caught, he knew he was in danger of being shot. and still elected to fire anyway.

And it was no cell phone, there was a shell casing that flew when he shot.

[paramedic70002]

Definitely a gun there. Yes the cop shot a lot, but how many were hits? Probably more than one, but cops miss, too.

[razorblade]

Yes, I think a few of those headshots were misses. Lots of adrenaline, very little time to evaluate the situation. They were forced to act. I find no fault in their actions.

[TN_Mike]

I have seen this before. I think the cops were completely justified in using deadly force.

The Bad Guy was an idiot. Why would you point anything at a cop who has a gun pointed at you? He made his decision, he failed to live with it.

[lowflyer]

He was not following instructions and waving what appeared to be a weapon. Nuff said.

[Colin]

Yea, he didn't seem to flinch at all when hit and at close range to, likely one of the shots hit something vital and down he went. Either of the cops could have been shot by the BG and they gave many chances, likely he was high on something, and without the cameras they would accused of a racial based shooting.

[randytulsa2]

Oh me, oh my.

I'm (not for the first time, but for the first time in a long time) going to go against the majority here.

I don't think the police officer on the right should have kept shooting after the guy turned around. But I also think either of those officers would have been justified in ventilating the guy when he turned against the officer on the left with the phone/gun/whatever.

But IMHO, once the guy turned back toward his forward, trying (I'm thinking) to get away, all shooting (though late-started by the officer on the right) should have stopped.

What I saw there was two officers shooting a guy who was trying to walk away, albeit immediately after having posed what seemed to me to be a lethal threat.

Before I get my asbestos underwear scorched here, though, folks, even I gotta acknowledge if the dude had just done what he was told, he would have lived through it.

And the officer on the right, if the object was a gun, would have been justified in shooting the guy toward the beginning of the video when the guy first turned toward him and they engaged (briefly) in a tussle/slapping match.

Bad situation. Bad outcome for everyone. Being stupid (or drunk/high AND stupid) can get you killed.

[lowflyer]

Oh me, oh my.

I'm (not for the first time, but for the first time in a long time) going to go against the majority here.

I don't think the police officer on the right should have kept shooting after the guy turned around. But I also think either of those officers would have been justified in ventilating the guy when he turned against the officer on the left with the phone/gun/whatever.

But IMHO, once the guy turned back toward his forward, trying (I'm thinking) to get away, all shooting (though late-started by the officer on the right) should have stopped.

What I saw there was two officers shooting a guy who was trying to walk away, albeit immediately after having posed what seemed to me to be a lethal threat.

Before I get my asbestos underwear scorched here, though, folks, even I gotta acknowledge if the dude had just done what he was told, he would have lived through it.

And the officer on the right, if the object was a gun, would have been justified in shooting the guy toward the beginning of the video when the guy first turned toward him and they engaged (briefly) in a tussle/slapping match.

Bad situation. Bad outcome for everyone. Being stupid (or drunk/high AND stupid) can get you killed.

One shoots from the time the threat is presented until it is no longer breathing, or one might die wishing they had. Following that logic, the walking away part is not relevant to any part of this discussion since the dude was apparently armed and had already posed a threat.

[Pickpocket]

...and had already shot once while walking away.

The only right decision was the one that made it possible to go home alive and well. All else is speculation.

[NCHornet]

Let me clarify, I am not criticising the cops action. I am glad it ended up with the BG down and not one of the officers!! Nobody can understand what these officers go through on a daily basis, and everyone they come in contact with is a potential threat to their life. Some areas are worse than others but the moment they drop their guard something bad can happen. I have been out there and I understand first hand what they go through.
As far as wether the guy had a cel phone or a gun, let me say I am just repeating the story as I found it on the web. It sure looked like a gun to me and I feel the officers were 100% justified in shooting, and shooting until the threat was no longer a threat, and that happens only when the BG is in cuffs or no longer moving. I can't say for sure that the object you think is a shell casing is or isn't, I just thought this would be a good situation for a training video. Thank goodness the laws (at least in most states) read that the BG doesn't have to be armed for a person to feel in imminent danger of their life, although it helps if they are in a court of law.
Y'all be safe.

[ccw9mm]

If indeed that was a gun and not a phone/etc in the suspect's hand, then immediately upon wielding it at the officers or firing, he gave up all reasonable assurance of not getting shot. At that point, the officers (anyone) would be justified in use of lethal force to defend against that prior attack. Had the guy been unarmed or it obviously was not a firearm, then perhaps one could consider firing at the suspect as stepping over the line, since it would have been mere disobedience and not violent threat. Hard to tell, with only the arm action and a "blur" in the suspect's hand. And, hard to tell given there was little sound on the vids.

The suspect absolutely had little regard for police authority; had been actively evading arrest and endangering all motorists/pedestrians around his fleeing car; struck the one officer; raised his arm in a manner strongly consistent with firing a gun (regardless of whether he actually did have a gun, or the sounds betrayed that he had a gun and had fired). All prior to the shooting by the officers. This consists of a lot of prior knowledge for the police ... IMO, justifying the stop via lethal force.

Whatever else is true: dumb suspect.

[lowflyer]

If I were on the grand jury for this one, it would be hard for me to find fault in the officers' actions regardless of what the item in the suspect's hand was. It looked like a gun and he pointed it at police while resisting arrest. That is enough for me at least.