Odd man in front of me

This is a discussion on Odd man in front of me within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Not in my State, Riversdaddy. The closeness of the encounter (within arms reach) and failure to stop when asked is a problem to me. It ...

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Thread: Odd man in front of me

  1. #16
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    Not in my State, Riversdaddy. The closeness of the encounter (within arms reach) and failure to stop when asked is a problem to me. It is difficult to withdraw when you have a young one in tow. And placing your hand on your weapon without drawing has the same affect as drawing. You have exposed a weapon with intent to use.

    Much worry about image here and very little thought about the protection of a defenseless child in a potentially bad situation.

    I like Fed with a Sig answer. Back-up, get distance, announce/state your commands and prepare.

    I have seen the same situation play out on a train platform in Madrid without a kid involved. Guy came out of the train with his face covered and stood in the doorway. When someone said something the guy exploded and struck the nearset person (a teenage girl) hurting her badly. No guns involved and the guy, after some struggle ran away.

    Substitute this father and son and give the idiot a knife and you have a bad situation.

    But then again, it appears I am the only one with that opinion.
    21 years and 21 days, United States Marine Corps & NRA Life Member since 1972

    "The trouble is with the increasingly widespread problem of idiots prancing around out there confusing their opinions with actual facts." peckman28

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  3. #17
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chorizo View Post
    Move your son out of the way, back step, draw and make ready.

    Had a like situation happen to me. I had a van pull up in the driveway way after normal visiting hours and a bunch of costumed drunks pile out and start beating on the front door. I quick step to the holding place of my living room weapon (toddler in the house so I had a lock box in the room) and my then wife, like a fool, opens the door and this one big orange faced with wild blue hair guy starts screaming and lurches towards me, just 5 feet from me. I unsafe the 1911 for a shot from the hip with one arm up in defense when I recognize over that idiot's shoulder a good friend not in costume. No shot fired. Seems like it was a pre-halloween joke. After I quit shaking and got the pistol back where it was safe. I explained to my buddy what almost happened. Needless to say, I always got an advance call before visits for quite a while.

    SA prevented me from popping the guy with 200 grain gold dots.

    The more you practice complex situations/scenarios the better your realtime SA will become.
    No offense, Chorizo, but I think your reaction to the original poster and your story may indicate that you may want to re-evaluate your shooting indicators. A guy standing in my way is not a lethal threat to me and if you almost shot your friend over a prank, it may be another example of being "too" ready to shoot. Granted, your story would cause me to go bright orange, but if you were essentially TRYING to shoot, you were bright red. Thank goodness for the todler that caused you to delay a few more seconds.

    Anyway, like I said, no offense, I'm not sure about the exact scenario, just my 15th-hand impression.

  4. #18
    Member Array hickatheart's Avatar
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    Cagueits, thanks for the welcome. This place is an unbelievable find. We're working on attaining CCW, and stopping here is like eating well at a great buffet.
    I don't think I would have drawn without a lot more provocation, and a dern solid reason to,(mostly because if it comes out it's going to [intend to] kill). Though I see the fault of waiting for too much of a reason. Well taken the point of the "distraction". That never would've occured to me. I concur Rivers, there could've have been a hundred reasons someone would act like that, innocently. Yet three, maybe four different movements, verbal warning, and the great big daddy bear teeth and claws start showing. Noisey I'm not, & bolting should've occured to me. Size and motivation were on my side, and "fight" due to proximity was the option chosen. So little time to think then.
    I've seen the guy again, never did tell him how close he got. . . . .

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hickatheart View Post
    I don't think I would have drawn without a lot more provocation, and a dern solid reason to,(mostly because if it comes out it's going to [intend to] kill)..
    A thought from my end from the "legal" part of the class I attended. If/when you have to shoot someone, the intent is not to "kill" them, it is to "stop" the threat. You shoot someone to "stop" them from assaulting (shooting, stabbing, threatening, whatever) you. The words are important when the police come and if a jury ever hears what you told the police. The difference between your saying "I was shooting at him to kill him" and "I was shooting at him to stop him" may make a big difference when a prosecutor reviews the case.

    Something to think about, anyway.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

  6. #20
    Member Array hickatheart's Avatar
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    Ya, roger that CopperKnight. No classes taken yet, still formulating the mindset and learning the laws.
    H@H

  7. #21
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    Katmandoo, I think you may have not fully understood my story. The guy I almost shot, I didn't know, he came bursting into my house screaming and lunging for me and to top it all off he was obviously drunk and dressed up with a bunch of other people I didn't know. Only the one I did know wasn't dressed up and he showed up in my vision only at the last instant.

    I have been doing this for years both professionally and privately, with lots of training. You just don't have the margin of time, space, and freedom of movement when someone is up very close and personal to draw and defend yourself.. And CopperKnight is right on, the action is to stop/nuetralize the threat, not kill. It just that the consequences of your action might kill. That is why it is call deadly force.

    I think this thread needs to also look at the SA side. The object is to never let someone get that close and personal if they may be a threat. How one goes about that will prevent more incidents & conflicts than anything else there is.
    21 years and 21 days, United States Marine Corps & NRA Life Member since 1972

    "The trouble is with the increasingly widespread problem of idiots prancing around out there confusing their opinions with actual facts." peckman28

  8. #22
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chorizo
    Not in my State...
    Well, that's the real point. You need to know the laws in YOUR state, or wherever you are carrying. The laws vary and what someone says is legal in their state may, or may not, be legal in your state. That's why you can't rely solely on advice you receive from relative strangers over an internet forum.

    Some states allow you to draw your weapon in almost any threatening situation. Others allow you to draw your weapon ONLY when you are in imminent threat of lethal attack (which would not be the case in the described scenario). Others require you to retreat if you can do so safely (which you obviously could in the described scenario). Some even require you to attempt to retreat from your own home, before you are justified in using lethal force in self-defense against a home invasion (which, to me, is completely outrageous!).

    Whatever the case, you need to know the laws where you carry!

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    Denverdon,
    Actually I believe it is a basic standard in all states that you need to feel in imminent danger of your life or the life of others in order to draw your weapon. Not aware of any state that allows you to draw down on someone because they were standing to close to you. I do agree there are a lot of other variables that change regarding concealed carry, but the main reason for first drawing the weapon is pretty much the same.

    And placing your hand on your weapon without drawing has the same affect as drawing. You have exposed a weapon with intent to use.
    FALSE!!!! I can place my hand near or upon my weapon without exposing the weapon in order to be prepared for an escalation in the situation, this is not even close to being the same as drawing your weapon on somebody. Don't believe me, try it and see what happens!
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
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  10. #24
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    I can place my hand near or upon my weapon without exposing the weapon in order to be prepared for an escalation in the situation, this is not even close to being the same as drawing your weapon on somebody.
    Yes I agree on that. It is possible to place a hand on or near and not expose at all - apart from being a step nearer to readiness. IF a draw were needed, it is also a gesture of warning - altho in that sense one to be used judiciously and not carelessly at all.

    Exposure is IMO just that - the gun is fully visible, even if still holstered - which would mean probably pulling aside a cover garment fully. It would thern become brandishment if cleared of the leather and pointed (unnecessarily).
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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    newbie here, as well. seeing the traffic on this forum is very satisfying. CombatCarry.com is a site i can't believe i've been missing.

    back to the subject...

    growing up, i was taught, sometimes the hard way, never to bite, kick, spit, hit, but most definitely point a gun at anyone unless i made the conscience decision beforehand that i was willing to wait around and explain why to the authorities.

    some guy simply barring my way, being obnoxious, stupid, whatever, is not justification in any state in this God blessed union to in turn threaten, much less accost, someone. dont be a paranoid ignorant twit. be a prepared, intelligent citizen.

    i dont care what state you're from, if you manage to do this more than one time without serious interference in your life from your local sheriff, you'll end up getting shot or shooting someone, either of which are very uncomfortable circumstances.



    if i saw a licensed CCW do such, i would politely ask them to wait for he police i had just telephoned to explain their actions. if he refused, i can't imagine that individual deserving to carry.

  12. #26
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    I concur with that briansmech. I would do the same to someone that reached back and grabbed their weapon, yet didn't unholster it. Brandishing a weapon, is brandishing a weapon.

    Well, uniformly, the word is, keep it holstered. I thank everyone for the input and their polite, yet frank answers.

    Semper Fi.
    21 years and 21 days, United States Marine Corps & NRA Life Member since 1972

    "The trouble is with the increasingly widespread problem of idiots prancing around out there confusing their opinions with actual facts." peckman28

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperKnight View Post
    I'd have to say "no draw" on this one as well, although I may have my hand on the grip. His hands are in sight, no weapon seen, and behavior that may be strange, but hard to call "aggressive".

    Put the kid in your weak arm, step back, hand on grip, strong side forward. This position will allow a balanced kick to the guy before you have to draw. I might come up with something better later, but this was my first thought/reaction.
    I have to agree here. I would not have drawn, but I would have uncovered and had my hand on the grip poised for a draw.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

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  14. #28
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    I Would Agree Here...

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Drawing would be too much I think too. stepping back with child and verbalizing"stay back" ect would help, if he does advance others will be paying attention.
    and I might add...A little 'heart to heart' talk with a friend who played such a joke in today's world...not a good move!

    OMO

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  15. #29
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    I just purchased some OC spray, i figure there may be times when i dont actually have to shoot someone.

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