Odd man in front of me

[hickatheart]

1) great forum
2)I post this as I have no resolution as to how I would have handled this if armed. Here's the scene:
Entering a train station w/newly walking son. Entering automatic doors, a man I did not recognize presents himself immediately in front of me (inches) with head down, and hands covering face, and blocks my path into building. I move left to aviod accidental meeting, and HE moves left. I move right, and he sidesteps again. I state "I wouldn't do that again friend" then he does it again. I pull my son back a step, and tell him to "STAY". Just as I was about to drop son's hand and give this guy all 200lbs fists first, he reveals his face as someone I knew back a few moons, who was simply playing a game, having recognized me first.

My first thought was that this was some psychiatric case (as a mental health professional at the time) ie prolly done of bad judgement vs. intended harm. My second thought: holy lack of situational awareness!!! (watching out for idiots in cars, watching son actually walk, there's the bus, gotta buy tickets, dang look at the time etc.)
Thanks for any wisdom!
H@H

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Chorizo]

Move your son out of the way, back step, draw and make ready.

Had a like situation happen to me. I had a van pull up in the driveway way after normal visiting hours and a bunch of costumed drunks pile out and start beating on the front door. I quick step to the holding place of my living room weapon (toddler in the house so I had a lock box in the room) and my then wife, like a fool, opens the door and this one big orange faced with wild blue hair guy starts screaming and lurches towards me, just 5 feet from me. I unsafe the 1911 for a shot from the hip with one arm up in defense when I recognize over that idiot's shoulder a good friend not in costume. No shot fired. Seems like it was a pre-halloween joke. After I quit shaking and got the pistol back where it was safe. I explained to my buddy what almost happened. Needless to say, I always got an advance call before visits for quite a while.

SA prevented me from popping the guy with 200 grain gold dots.

The more you practice complex situations/scenarios the better your realtime SA will become.

[Nate]

Move your son out of the way, back step, draw and make ready.

I wouldn't do that AT ALL. Train stations tend to be a pretty public place, so there'd be plenty of people around to answer to if you drew, not to mention the cops, even if it IS legal for you to do so.

Also, who's to say that if you drew, someone wouldn't mistake YOU for the BG (seeing as the guy in front of you was crouched and covering his face with his hands - a decidedly defensive posture, with no visual indication of a weapon), and perhaps draw on you, or elicit a response from the (probably, one would hope) nearby security and/or police force?

As far as moving your son out of the way, there's no way to do that, keep your eye on him, and keep your eye on the BG/BG's hands all at the same time.

Pick your son up and get some distance between you and the perceived threat. Maintain your now heightened sense of awareness. If the person turned out to be a BG and tried to either do you harm or kidnap your son, THEN decide on the next course of action, and act appropriately.

Either way, I'm glad everything worked out for you Hickatheart.

[Chorizo]

I would hate to turn my back on someone like that or have my son in my arms if the guy makes for you. I concur that distance is the best defense. There isn't any real good solution for a real up close and personal encounter except distance. I wouldn't be as concerned about the threat more distant than the one in your face...the first alligator analogy. I would rather be explaining why I might have shot this guy, than sitting on the ground with blood gurgling out of my gut. I still maintain that preparing to defend is the best option until you can get some seperation.

[denverd0n]

Move your son out of the way, back step, draw and make ready.

Someone standing in front of a doorway is not a lethal threat. No way, no how. If you draw your gun in this situation (at least, in Colorado, probably most other states) you are the one most likely to end up in jail, because now YOU are the one who just escalated this non-violent confrontation to a lethal level.

[Chorizo]

I view it as intended harm. When told to stop he continues, is well within striking distance, and in your control is a defenseless child that is family to protect. I didn't say shoot, just make ready. At that close of a distance, there would be no time to make ready if he went for you. If he was out of arms reach and jumping distance, then I would agree with you. He displayed two out of three in my mind: Opportunity (close enough to do bodily harm) and intent (continued with his offensive action). Would I have pulled the trigger, unlikely at that point as it hadn't escalated. It believe it had escalated to the point of preparing to defend yourself until you could lower the threat level.


Add on thought: I also believe that it depends on your location. Here in Idaho, not as many people, local culture places more respect on personal space, and higher expectation of personal responsibility. Having lived and been in East Coast big cities and busy public transport, I would be more reluctant to draw in those situations. If it was me alone, I would not have drawn, if I had a child to protect, I'll stick with the more aggressive posture.

By stepping back and preparing to defend, you have made a good faith endeavor to decline further struggle in Idaho. If BG continues to press the issue, then to each their own level of comfort.

See below. By the way, this is a great discussion, thanks!

Idaho law: 3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mortal combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed

[CopperKnight]

I'd have to say "no draw" on this one as well, although I may have my hand on the grip. His hands are in sight, no weapon seen, and behavior that may be strange, but hard to call "aggressive".

Put the kid in your weak arm, step back, hand on grip, strong side forward. This position will allow a balanced kick to the guy before you have to draw. I might come up with something better later, but this was my first thought/reaction.

[Chorizo]

Great suggestion. Sounds like the most appropriate solution to me. I will add this to my tool box of scenarios.

[fed_wif_a_sig]

Wow. Makes me glad I live in the country.

My only tidbit I can throw into the mess, is consider this. When I worked dignitary protection, we'd sweep our pretectee (in this case your son) behind out back with our weak arm. In some cases with my own kids and children of protectees, I have simply picked them up and held them behind my body, my daughter one time ended up upside down with legs in the air, but her head and chest were out of the way. While doing this creat distance with your strong hand, keep it up to keep them at body distance. Yes they could pull a knife, but you can and WILL survive a cut (they look worse than they are and that I know from personal experience). If the stiff arm to keep distance dosent work, back off, your first focus is the safety of loved ones. If you can, back into a corner, once in a corner with a wall to your back you can start to escilate your levels of force. If verbal dosent work, a push kick to their chest dosent keep them off, you can atriculate your fear having been backed into a corner by someone who continued to pursue you and left you no avenue.

In 99% of the cases this will work, in those 1% of the cases, once in the corner, my hand would have aquired a firing grip on my weapon but kept it holstered. My verbal commands would have been loud, and attention gathering.

Its always hard to say what to do or what we'd do it each event. I have been blessed with awsome trainers, and the one thing they beat into my think skull was where ever I go, "what if" situations in my mind and practice them with my kids.

My little one is to the point whee when we enter a new store/resturant or other location, she'll point out to me where she thinks her safe spot or evac location is. It makes me chuckle, but at the same time proud that an 11 yo can think like that.

Ok I'll go back to my cage now,

[NCHornet]

Someone standing in front of a doorway is not a lethal threat. No way, no how. If you draw your gun in this situation (at least, in Colorado, probably most other states) you are the one most likely to end up in jail, because now YOU are the one who just escalated this non-violent confrontation to a lethal level.

I agree with the above 100%, there is not enough threat to expose your weapon. Man for all you know the guy is blind? With my weak hand I would get my child behind be, and with my strong hand in a ready position to draw I would back step keeping my eye on the guy. Drawing your weapon in such a scenario is a good way to get in trouble.

[purple88yj]

Good thing it was a friend. I was thinking a distraction set up.

Not trying to brow beat you here (I have two young'uns myself, so I know how they can be at times), but by taking your attention off of your son to defend him, your full attention at this point is in the potential threat. You won't notice the cute young blonde that was standing nearby ready to get her hands on a kid. Not necessarily a kidnapping for ransom either.

This kind of thing goes through my mind every day.

[falkon]

I say no draw also. I would not have been in fear for my life. Backup and walk the other way! I would keep my eye on him as I went in an other door.

[rocky]

Drawing would be too much I think too. stepping back with child and verbalizing"stay back" ect would help, if he does advance others will be paying attention.

[cagueits]

Sometimes we fumble on the situation awarness/decision taking process. Since the unknown person (bad guy/prankster/candid camera crew guy/etc) got too close, and the hands were covering the face, I think a knee to the groin area with a free hand shove would be more than enoughf (yell "get away!" at the same time so people notice what is going on). Keep an eye on your son, this could've been a distraction to snatch him up.

Just my 2 cents.

By the way hickatheart, welcome to CombatCarry.

[riversdaddy]

If you pull your weapon in that situation, you can look forward to losing your CCW and going to jail for the night in most states. No escalation of force at all. What if he got a chemical in his eye that shouldn't be there, and he couldn't really tell what he was doing? Too many variables to go to a gun with so little info.