Been discussed here many times. Basic answer is, call 911 and request an ambulance. Not going to put myself in ange of someone who was trying to do me harm. As my Dad used to say: "They made their bed, let them lay in it!"

 

I would render aid if it could be done safely. And I have in the past. If the criminal was secured, unconcious, or there was someone to provide cover, or I would provide cover while another provided aid. You do not want to close to grappling distance if you are alone, the criminal could get your gun and continue the fight.

 

I can't say for sure that would or wouldn't. More than likely the extent of my help will be requesting an ambulance. Primarily because I will probably still be covering the assailant until authorities arrive. Like many have said, how do you know how much fight is left in him and why put yourself in danger after trying to neutralize the threat.

 

I keep a fairly comprehensive trauma kit in my vehicle (high likelihood of being involved in a serious crash and I don't want to have to watch a family member bleed out).

Under the circumstances you laid out the answer is yes, I would render aid.

I'm also surprised at the number of people who apparently carry firearms for self-protection yet claim not to have the knowledge or means to render first aid, even though they may need to use it to save themselves. Well, not really all that surprised I guess.

First aid is really pretty simple.

Assure breathing (Are they breathing on their own, is the airway obstructed? Have you bothered to learn CPR?)

Stop the bleeding (Direct pressure, pressure points, IBD, clotting agents, tourniquet?)

Treat for shock (Keep the individual calm and warm)

What if in the course of defending yourself your significant other is shot? How long will it be before the ambulance arrives? How long does it take to bleed out?

If you don't know this stuff you need to learn it. It could save a loved ones life. It really should be considered an essential life skill.

Whether you want to use this knowledge to help someone who you just shot is a decision only you can make.

 

Can't speak for anyone else here, but my point was that I am not formally trained as a medical professional. Yes, I know enough to provide basic help for my spouse or loved one, but rendering medical attention to someone you just shot is not the same and has many implications. Even if you know that they are no longer a threat, you still have the legal ramifications.

I work in the business end of healthcare and I see way too many lawsuits filed against good professionals who used all of their skill to try and help people. I can only imagine how an attorney representing a shooting 'victim' would play it. Think about how many stories are posted on DC where relatives of career criminals tell the press how innocent and great their little criminals are.

I am not looking to ever harm or kill another person; using my EDC is a last resort only to be used on an imminent threat. If I have to use it, I have no desire to further complicate my legal situation.

 

Would I ? NO Never.

I am not a Doctor, Nurse, Paramedic, or any other sort of licensed trained medical professional.

And if the perp dies :dead: while I am attempting to render unqualified unlicensed medical assistance or aid then I will be leaving myself wide open to some ravenous civil lawyer making an argument that I needed to finish him off for one reason or another.

If I ever am forced to shoot somebody it will be because they seriously needed to be shot.

I (of course) WILL call 911 and request an ambulance PRONTO.

The professionals will do what they are paid (not nearly enough) and trained to do.

 

Another great point.

 

Assuming the scene is safe, yes, of course. I use force to defend myself and mine, not to kill others. Once me and mine are safe and secure I would certainly do whatever I could to save another persons life.

 

If the situation warranted it, of course I would.

 

Is there a duty to render aid under state/federal law?

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.662

609.662 SHOOTING VICTIM; DUTY TO RENDER AID.
Subdivision 1.Definition. As used in this section, "reasonable assistance" means aid appropriate to the circumstances, and includes obtaining or attempting to obtain assistance from a conservation or law enforcement officer, or from medical personnel.
Subd. 2.Duty to render aid. (a) A person who discharges a firearm and knows or has reason to know that the discharge has caused bodily harm to another person, shall:
(1) immediately investigate the extent of the person's injuries; and

(2) render immediate reasonable assistance to the injured person.

(b) A person who violates this subdivision is guilty of a crime and may be sentenced as follows:

(1) if the injured person suffered death or great bodily harm as a result of the discharge, to imprisonment for not more than two years or to payment of a fine of not more than $4,000, or both;

(2) if the injured person suffered substantial bodily harm as a result of the discharge, to imprisonment for not more than one year and one day or to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000, or both;

(3) otherwise, to imprisonment for not more than one year or to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000, or both.

(c) Notwithstanding section 609.035 or 609.04, a prosecution for or conviction under this subdivision is not a bar to conviction of or punishment for any other crime committed by the defendant as part of the same conduct.

Subd. 3.Duty of witness. (a) A person who witnesses the discharge of a firearm and knows or has reason to know that the discharge caused bodily harm to a person shall:
(1) immediately investigate the extent of the injuries; and

(2) render immediate reasonable assistance to the injured person.

(b) A person who violates this subdivision is guilty of a crime and may be sentenced as follows:

(1) if the defendant was a companion of the person who discharged the firearm at the time of the discharge, to imprisonment for not more than one year or to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000, or both;

(2) otherwise, to imprisonment for not more than 90 days or to payment of a fine of not more than $1,000, or both.

Subd. 4.Defense. It is an affirmative defense to a charge under this section if the defendant proves by a preponderance of the evidence that the defendant failed to investigate or render assistance as required under this section because the defendant reasonably perceived that these actions could not be taken without a significant risk of bodily harm to the defendant or others.​

​

So it's our burden of proof to show continuing threat of bodily harm to ourselves or others?

what if we think the bad guy might have aids? is that good enough?


I wonder how many bad guy murderers get charged with this by not helping their victims?


edit: a LEO friend said calling 911 suffices but the statute doesnt quite read like that, its clear as mud. They also said bad guys do not get charged w/ this. wonder why? they don't help their victims or call 911.

As a fellow Minnesotan I immediately thought of this statute as well.

I would provide reasonable first aid regardless. Am I going to stick my fingers in a wound to try and pinch off an artery? Doubtful, that may expose me to unreasonable risk given the circumstances. For sure I'll make sure the dispatcher knows that we need police AND an ambulance, and I would provide anyone I shot with a towel or other first aid supplies and directions to apply direct pressure and remain calm.

Why?

Well because if the threat is stopped, there's no reason to let a person lie there without any treatment. I am not going to get out sutures or anything, but I will provide supplies and self-aid directions from a safe distance. I have sufficient supplies and medical training to do that for gunshot wounds.

Why would I help someone who had just tried to attack me?

Because he's not attacking me anymore, and while I will defend myself, I don't believe in holding any malice in my heart toward anyone else.

 

No I would not. My help would be limited to calling 911 and letting the police and paramedics deal with it. I wouldn't compromise my safety.

 

Well, in the old movies the guy that was shot would be asking for a cigarette and you would hafta light it for him and put it in his mouth.

And then he would mumble a quiet "Thanks" and take two puffs before he "gave up the ghost" & expired.

Of course today...with the health hazard WARNING labels on the packs of "smokes" that could easily backfire on you also these days.

 

Well, in the old movies the guy that was shot would be asking for a cigarette and you would hafta light it for him and put it in his mouth.

If he's asking for a light, he's well enough to likely complete what he'd started. Pass on that.

He can go rent the film instead, if he makes it. But that's between him and the trauma surgeons.

 

A 911 call would be the extent of my help. They probably won't be needing it though.

 

Let's see, I'm not a LEO so the only time I will draw my gun is I feel my life or the life of a family member is threatened. In that situation, I will shoot to stop the threat. Nor am I a doctor, nurse, paramedic or any other type of trained medical person. So no, if someone tries to harm me and I have to shoot them to protect my life, I am not going to be performing amateur first aid on them. I will immediately call 911 after I have assessed the situation and ascertained that there isn't a second BG around that poses a threat, but I am not getting within reach of the individual that just tried to harm/kill me. I will observe to make sure the BG doesn't get back up and try to attack me again and wait for the police and medical personnel to arrive. If the BG survives, so be it. If he does not, he brought the situation upon themselves. :yup:

 

honey quick! i need an IV in each arm with drip, the drug box, intubation kit and a rib separator...

unless your shooting to wound you would probably need a full medical team, equipment, and a miracle to save the day

 

And I don't happen to carry a vascular surgeon around with me in my back pocket.

 

One of my first thoughts was about messing up the seen. When all is said and done, we will most likely have to defend ourselves a second time in court. While trying to render first aid may look good, what is the chance that it will turn the scene against us in a big way. I think it's too big a chance. Unless of course the perp had done something to my child, then I would do my best to revive him, so I can hurt him again, then revive & repeat as long as possible. I would not be worried about any consequences in that scenario.

 

Yes if they were no longer a threat

 

If I just shot someone on purpose, nope, not going to try to give them first aid.

Not that I wouldn't and haven't helped strangers, just that if I shot you on purpose you were doing something really stupid that involved injuring me or some other innocent person, so you can wait till an ambulance gets there. I am not putting myself in danger to save a scumbag.

 

interesting read and points. Pretty passionate on some of them. Again, my thought was if I shot someone in a parking lot (gas station, walmart) and they were completely down (not moving, unconscious, not a threat) I would like to think I would attempt to save them by applying pressure to the wound or whatever.

Only reason I ask is that I am trying to become a better man. I seem to remember reading the Greatest man say "if you love only those that love you, what reward is there in that?"

Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. But good food for thought and not something I have seen discussed here before.

I am not putting myself in danger to save a scumbag.

"scumbag" maybe. Maybe a desperate person doing a desperate thing. I don't want to kill anyone. My point was, even if I deployed my weapon, I'd like to think I could help them not die as a result. I dunno. One of those questions with no answer maybe?

 

If I shoot with my pistol, I'm shooting as many as it takes until they go down and stop being a threat. If that means it takes a single .380 that happens to hit in their shoulder, they will be fine until the police arrive. After the threat is stopped, I'm busy calling 911.

If it's a home invasion threat, after the incident I'm calling 911 as well before helping them is even an option. If they do get shot in my home, it's either a 12ga 00 buck or 7.62x39. Not much that myself or anyone can probably do to help them after a few rounds of either.

 

I have read good comments both ways. My initial thought was what my Dad used to say: Son, if you ever have to defend yourself, shoot'm all, Let God sort'm out. And don't stop shooting until they stop moving.

Course that wouldn't look good in court but he was kinda old school. Looked at life differently than they do now.

I'm going to an advanced handgun class this weekend for three days. Think I'll ask this question there. Instructors are current LEOs and ex-military. See what they have to say. Suppose to be about 14 shooters from 3 states. West Virginia, Virginia & Maryland.

 

That would be awesome. Please report back.

If you were a paramedic first on the scene officer down and BG down assessment not withstanding who do you treat? I know who I would treat.

In my scenario this isn't relevant. Nobody is down except the bad guy (who is unconscious or bleeding to death)

 

Years ago a police officer turned author. In his books he tells of the different types of humor police get. At a terrible accident this nosey nelly slows to a crawl rolls down the window and asks is anybody hurt. The officer reached down and picked up a head that was no longer attached to its owner and replied this one got banged up a little. Two weeks without pay he said was the punishment.

Helping someone you shot who had hurt your family or in his case another officer. This BG shot a cop killing him. In the shoot out the BG was hit in the chest. The officer responding said BG not breathing so he performed CPR on the bad guy until no more blood oozed from the wound in short pumping the bad guy dry. Review board found the guy innocent and within policy administering aid.

For me if I do my job properly this situation will never arise.

If you were a paramedic first on the scene officer down and BG down assessment not withstanding who do you treat? I know who I would treat.


Joseph Wambuagh I think was the name some great books if that interests you.

 

Well, he's doing what he's supposed to be doing then.

 

In Wisconsin I'm protected from civil lawsuits if I injure someone in a legitimate, self defense situation , but not from practicing medicine without a license.

 

No. Too dangerous. Time to escape not zig zig with the threat down or not.

The first step of First Aid is to survey the scene (to assess the need to move the victim to safety). My next step after my using lethal force is to wait in a safe place for authority to sort it out.

One doesn't know if the threat is stopped or not. That's a relative term that I take with the mental reservation, "stopped" enough for me to escape. Bear in mind that a person may go down with blood pressure compromised enough to cause fainting but that lying on the ground may restore sufficient pressure to function.

Another thing, testimony of the gunshot "victim" notwithstanding, there may be witnesses who say that any aid rendered is actually a bad intent to cause suffering. "The maniac shot 'im and walked up to torture 'im".

 

Another thing, testimony of the gunshot "victim" notwithstanding, there may be witnesses who say that any aid rendered is actually a bad intent to cause suffering. "The maniac shot 'im and walked up to torture 'im".

Here in CA you are required to render aid , if possible. Of course, I sometimes get confused when the aderenalin flows, I might mistake proper CPR for a very old and bad joke where you render CPR to AIDS victime by stomping their chests. A size 13 boot will plug the wound, right?

 

Once the scene was safe and I called for help I would assist in trying to stop bleeding, CPR etc. That's what law enforcement is required to do. I'm not LE but I do understand that that's the right thing to do. Only reason you would let the person bleed out is if you feel you just had a unjustified shooting. And in that case weather he bleeds out or not, your in deep trouble. If you can assist in saving a life I highly suggest it. I won't really judge you either way, but a jury might...

 

Would not get near some lugnuts blood

 

Yes i would render aid ..........i'd go to the shed and get a pick and shovel ask him to help me dig . :hand13:

On a serious not i would most likely help once i stopped the threat . But i would wait for any instructions from 911 .