February 7th, 2005 05:59 PM
What would you have done???
He survived Iraq, but had a near miss in Cleveland
By Jamie Nash of th eCleveland Advoate (Tx)
It was either road rage or a case of mistaken identity that ended in the Wal-mart parking lot January 11.
Around 9:30 p.m. Thaddeus Bogney lost control of his small passenger car and ran onto concrete landscaping materials at the Cleveland Wal-mart. Witnesses say the car was followed closely by a pickup whose driver then exited his vehicle and smashed the car's window with a concrete pad as the car's driver shouted, "I don't know you! I don't know you!" Witnesses identified the assailant as Jason Bocanegra, a Cleveland resident.
The victim reported that Bocanegra began the pursuit at Regency Drive and Highway 59, after blocking Bogney's path and exiting his vehicle to approach the car on foot. Bogney reportedly backed up and went around the truck, at which time Bocanegra got back into his truck and followed, trying to run him off of the road.
Bogney exited at Cleveland, pulling into the Wal-mart parking lot. Bocanegra followed and began bumping Bogney's car with his truck. Bogney reportedly lost control trying to turn a corner around a plant display, and ended up on the concrete landscaping pads.
Bocanegra then exited his vehicle, beating Bogney's window with his fist then picking up a concrete pad and smashing the window. All the while, Bocanegra was reportedly yelling something about his sister and making death threats toward Bogney. Witnesses said Bogney kept yelling, pleading with Bocanegra that he did not know him.
When Bocanegra started to walk toward his truck, Bogney climbed out of the broken window. Bocanegra saw him out of the car and ran back, hitting Bogney in the mouth with his fist.
At that point, witnesses had already called the police and as they entered the parking lot, Bocanegra returned to his truck and fled. When people told Bogney who Bocanegra was he said he believed he had gone to school with the man's brother and sister, but did not know his assailant. Bogney also stated he had recently returned from a tour of duty in Iraq with the United States Army.
The San Jacinto County Sheriff's Department had been contacted by the Cleveland Police Department and arrested Bocanegra on outstanding warrants. It was later learned that Bocanegra had outstanding warrants in Cleveland.
The reason for the attack on the soldier remains unclear, but it appears to have been a case of mistaken identity.
If I am mistaken for someone else and in fear of my life as it seems in this case, I would present my weapon and tell the assailant to get on the ground. If he proceeded to advance and I could not effect an escape, I will soon be calling my lawyer.
What would you guys do?
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live!!!
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
The worst thing in this world, next to anarchy, is government.
Henry Ward Beecher
February 7th, 2005 07:29 PM
I would do the Same as you say
February 7th, 2005 08:11 PM
Once he had a concrete pad (a weapon in my book) and was approaching, I wouldn't bother with the warning - especially after a chase. I'm reminded of an event that occurred here to me and my old lady a few years back, which I'll probably post in another thread.
And today looks to be a good day to have a concealed weapon at Wal mart between this and the other thread. :)
February 7th, 2005 10:36 PM
With a loud and commanding voice (as much for the people in the parking lot (my witnesses)) I would yell at him to "Stop! Drop the weapon!". If it stopped him I would follow it up with as many repetitions as I could as long as he did not advance on me. I would be slowly backing into a better position, hopefully behind cover. If he did drop it I would stop and switch the command to "Get on the ground!" and hold him until I could get someone to call police. If continued to advance rather than drop the weapon (concrete pad) then I believe I would be justified shooting. At least here in AZ, the concrete pad would be considered a weapon and I would be, of course, in fear of my life. Sounds like the guy had enough witnesses to back him up in what was happening, which is important.
As a side question, if the BG was carrying the concrete pad (I am assuming a stepping stone type thing) obscuring center mass, would you still shoot center mass? I am thinking I would. What would be the result of you shooting a concrete stepping stone that someone was carrying with a .45acp?
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
February 7th, 2005 11:35 PM
After a chase I would have my weapon out and ready. If he had a concrete pad and didn't follow vebal commands he would be going down. Even a 2-4" pad will deflect a bullet. It will chip, but I really doubt unless yer shooting a 5.7 FN or a rifle you will not achive penetration , especially with HP rounds. Hmmm... guess I need to grab a few blocks on my way to the range next time.
February 7th, 2005 11:46 PM
Yeah, I agree that it probably wouldn't penetrate but I would still hate to be holding one. At the least I expect that it would slap it hard enough to give you a good punch to the chest and shower you with fragments and cement dust. It might also crack and leave him with a smaller weapon....
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
February 8th, 2005 03:22 AM
1952 - 2006
I agree with you Bumper, Command him to stop with gun drawn if he complies then put him on the ground and wait for police. If he decides to flee, let him go, get a good description of all available info to pass on to the police. If he continues to advance on you then I'm afraid I too would be in touch with an attorney in short order after having fired 2 rounds to the center of mass.
On the issue of the concrete pad a 230gr 45 slug will with 1 or 2 rounds bust up the pad. I have done this with the 12X12" concrete stepping stones. The problem then as I see it is:
A: Is it going to knock the S**t out of him and are his hands are going to be stinging severely from the impact?
B: Once the block breaks up he no longer has a viable weapon other than a rock to throw at you, which I doubt he will be able to do because of the great pain he would be in from the impact of the slugs to the stone. Plus there would be the shock factor that he has been shot at and something has hit him (framents at least, possibly the second slug).
It is also possible however that the stone would simply break up and he would experience no trauma at all and it would just anger him all the more.
Question here is if the stone has broken up and he drops the rest of it then charges you without a weapon do you fire again?
Once the concrete pad is not longer in his hands and he is displaying no other kind of weapon is he still a target for lethal force or do you attemp to retreat away from him or go hand to hand?
I'm going to have to ponder this one. HMMM.
Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences
"I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
DE OPPRESSO LIBER
February 8th, 2005 06:03 AM
Remember the Teuller drill. He's dangerous with the concrete pad from (at least) 21-feet away. That's about one car-length. So, I'm not sure that he's ever really a safe distance away in this scenario. I would use commands but only if I had the luxury and safety of distance to do so. Otherwise, I think he's already expressed intent to do me grave bodily harm and I would shoot (assuming I had time to access my pistol.)
I would have stayed in the car and squirmed my way to draw my pistol. When I shot, I would aim for the best available exposed targets. An advanced failure drill (2-4 at body, 2-4 at head, 2-4 at pelvis and shoot him to the ground) seems to be the order of the day.
What about if you didn't have a pistol with you that day? I frequently have to drive to a place where I can't even leave a pistol in my car. (If only he would try to follow me there instead of Wal-Mart) I have to leave it at home. The car is searched by guards with machine-guns on a certain frequency. If I were on my way to or from this site, I would only have a few contact range weapons available to me. So, my plan would probably be to draw a knife, move to the center of the stuck car (if it really is stuck) and cut anything that reaches into the car to the bone.
When it's time to stomp cockroaches, you don't want to be wearing your fuzzy bunny slippers.
February 8th, 2005 08:18 AM
I would think that if he's breaking my car window, and I have no escape, it's justified.
EOD - Initial success or total failure
February 8th, 2005 08:43 AM
I know I have harped on this before and most likely will continue to do so, get used to it... :o)
At any rate, in this case your first line of defense is your vehicle.
It doesnt say what kind of truck he was in, but let's assume he was in an average full size pickup.
Time for a few scenarios.
#1 you are in an honda or a similarly small econobox. You will lose that part of the confrontation if it comes to him "bumping" your car. Your only means of retreat, is to find some narrow twisty road where you can take curves at speeds that he can't.
#2 If you were driving an equally sized vehicle, you have a much better chance of keeping him at bay until the police catch up with you. (i am assuming you called 911 as soon as he tried to block the road and approach you)
#3 You are driving a heavier, vehicle than he is. (where is the evil grin smilely when you need it?) Unless you panic and or he is an exceptionally good driver, chances are you can slow the chase down a bit and be better able to recover from most of his attempts to run you off the road, if in fact ,he tries it at all. If he is right on your tail and bumping his back bumper, you can try to slam on your brakes, which if you are lucky will deploy his airbag if his vehicle is equipped with one. If your really really really lucky, it might trigger the inertia switch for the fuel pump in his vehicle and leave him stranded. At the very least it rattle him and either enrage him further or make him reconsider.
At any rate, I would much rather be driving our suburban, than an econobox when this nutcase showed up.
Of course I know many of us can't afford to drive big old tanks around, but something full size, and preferably with a full frame under it, would be a big advantage, even if it is ugly.
(steps down off of soap box)
As for what I would have done in the same situation as the soldier, I think bumper said it best already.
On a side note, would the law say that displaying your weapon was, appropriate while still in the car running from this guy?
February 8th, 2005 11:31 AM
He did good by trying to get to a crowded place. At least there would be witnesses if not some help.
About the time my car stopped I'd have a gun out. The guy has already hit me with a vehicle. In VA that should be enough to meet the standard for self defense. If this guy comes with a concrete block I'm shooting. If for some reason I don't shoot and he leaves. I don't exit my vehicle until he is gone.
Stuff like this is why I'm glad I drive a full-size truck. I just wish my wife would do the same.
February 8th, 2005 11:59 AM
Those cast concrete stepping stones are made from a very tough mix, a .45 wouldn’t do much I don’t think, if he is covering CM, then the pelvic triangle is probably open and that is where I would put a few rounds.
if the BG was carrying the concrete pad (I am assuming a stepping stone type thing) obscuring center mass, would you still shoot center mass?
My 2 vehicles are 1) a 1988 full size Bronco, unless trapped in town he would never be able to follow me, I can do 180s in the width of a street etc but if I needed to play bumper cars....
2) My F350, diesel, dually 4X4, well ding that and may god have mercy on your soul cause your is mine :madboxer:
For the average car, try to figure what advantage you have over the aggressor and try to use it, if you are trapped and can’t utilize an advantage there isn’t much you can do. A vehicle is a deadly weapon if used in an aggressive manor and threat of force or application of force is justified, and while trapped in the car and attacked with a concrete slab…anyone remember Reginald Denny???
When I took my Iowa CCW class the instructor held up and asked if it was a deadly weapon or offered any threat. NO. Then he held it in his fist so the pointy end protruded between the middle and ring finger and went into a martial arts stance and asked “how ‘bout now?” well in that case it was a YES. It is not so much the object but how it is used and the mind set of the person holding it.
February 8th, 2005 05:26 PM
That is what it is for. As soon as the incident started.
Use of firearm would have been a last resort.
February 8th, 2005 05:55 PM
As soon as the concrete pad came out and I was trapped in my car I'd of felt in fear of my life and had to take him down. The car is trapped you are trapped and being threatened with a deadly weapon. I doubt a jury would have an issue.
February 9th, 2005 10:33 AM
Make Sure I Have Plenty Of Ammo. This Guy Is Obviously A Nut Case. Can't Flee, Then Shoot To Stop, Preferably Com
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