February 7th, 2005 08:17 PM
Scenario: You come home...
This is a real-world event from five or so years back.
You come home, alone or with your wife, family, whatever. You live in an area with spotty cell phone coverage at the time, and as luck would have it, it's not working that day.
You're living in an apartment building with only one way in or out of your apartment other than 2nd floor windows, and as you walk into the lobby, there is a large, unkempt man screaming obscenities and telling you that he's going to f'in kill you. Your eyes move to the 4' stick in his hand (yes, 4', not 4").
You're armed. So is he. You haven't even said a word - just walked in, and you've never seen the dude before in your life.
There's no way to quickly dart past him or get to your door and get into the apartment.
(and I'll post the actual event and the discussions with the local powers that be after a while - and I no longer live there largely because of this and a similar incident).
February 7th, 2005 10:48 PM
I would draw my weapon and command him to "Stop! Drop the weapon!" while backing away slowly (this sounds like the thread of APachon's I just answered). If he did, switch to "Get on the ground!" I am assuming if I was yelling at the level I would be that someone would call the police. Hold him until the police arrive. If he continued to advance towards me I believe I would be justified in shooting. Again, the 4' "stick" (let's call it a club) would be considered a weapon capable of inflicting serious injury or death on me, or my wife if she was with me. If my wife were with me, I would make sure whe got someplace safe. A large man threatening to kill me is not going to get a hit in if I could help it....
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
February 7th, 2005 11:14 PM
I would draw my weapon as discretly as possible , command him to stay back and tell my family to head back out the door. Get in the vehicle and leave the area. Contact the PD ASAP.
February 7th, 2005 11:29 PM
Tell wife to go for help. I cover wife's retreat and then try to make my own. Hopefully I can get back out the door. Depending on my assessment I may already have gun in hand. Maybe visible, maybe not.
This guy is likely mentally ill and homeless. So maybe speaking to him calmly will work, maybe not. If not maybe yelling will work, maybe not. You never know with mentally ill people. I really don't want to have to shoot him, so getting out of the situation is the best for everyone. If not and he comes at me, well then we are going to have a fight.
February 8th, 2005 08:27 AM
Cover my family's retreat and then try to retreat myself. I still don't think it is time for a gun. A 4' stick carries a wide loop, but not if you get inside it and knock him to the ground or completely out. Lethal force is my last resort. Rather retreat if possible and call the police. They might make it there in 30 or so minutes.....
February 8th, 2005 12:11 PM
I have 2 bad knees and a 25% loss of use of my right arm due to a shoulder injury so any sort of physical contact is out. I would draw and keep the gun at the up ready position while family (wife) retreated and I issued warnings, if my 21 foot "saftey zone" were violated in a threatening mannor....case closed. If I were able to retreat I would send the wife to someplace with people while I called police on the cell and maintained a visual on the subject untill police arrived, then it is their problem.
February 8th, 2005 02:33 PM
I just love these!
Well, with my LTC (license to carry) I have a first obligation to retreat the threat if possible.
Since the guy is in the lobby which (I'm guessing) is a public place (and NOT in my apartment) - my first duty would be at least exit the lobby & for sure place a door between myself & the crazed goofball.
At the same time I sure would not do a "full retreat" & have the guy go after another innocent individual. (since he is obviously already willing to "kill" folks that he does not know) - I would need to stick around to yell to any other apartment dwellers that were leaving their apartments & coming into the lobby to GO BACK & call 911 from an apartment NON cell phone.
In this situation I would absolutely have my firearm out of the leather.
Would I shoot the guy if he were just standing there yelling & wildly swinging that stick around?........No.
A substantial four foot "stick" IS as deadly as a baseball bat & one solid hit will crush a skull. I sure would like to make sure that my personal brains stayed inside my own head if possible. Just because a shooting may be justified - that does not mean that shooting is immediately NECESSARY.
While a baseball bat or a brick type weapon ARE considered to be deadly weapons - the compassionate, artistic side of me sure would hate to permanently "drop" a "loony tune" that maybe just went off his medication for a few days.
I would for sure stay out of immediate "stick range" & keep a watchful eye on him until I could get somebody else to put a fast 911 call in.
Usually, (99% of the time) folks that are really drunk or have totally spazzed out...or are bombed out on drugs and/or are completely crazed/irrational will not ever respond (in a positive way) or obey "Drop The Weapon!" or "Stay Back" commands - so I personally would NOT bother yelling any instructive commands which would be just as likely to further provoke as to diffuse the situation.
Lately...I've been packing a mighty damn effective (out to 15 to 20 feet) Bear Spray (called GUARD ALASKA) along with my primary weapon & I sure would (in a heartbeat) CS gas the guy if necessary.
Most crazy & agressive people that are (for whatever reason) on a rant can be effectively subdued & sent to treatment without getting killed. That takes Law Enforcement or SWAT in greater numbers than myself.
I'll be curious to read what the "correct" answer is to this one.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
February 8th, 2005 05:18 PM
Simple, draw my firearm, and retreat. If he follows, do what is necessary to protect me and mine.
February 8th, 2005 06:07 PM
Agreed, Retreat and pray he doesn't follow. If so, clean the pool.
February 8th, 2005 06:25 PM
WEll, You Sure Can Tell This Isn't GlockTalk
NOBODY said they would just shoot the stick right out of his hands yet! :got-hooli
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
February 8th, 2005 06:32 PM
QK :3schild40 , you slay me...LMAO
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live!!!
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
The worst thing in this world, next to anarchy, is government.
Henry Ward Beecher
February 9th, 2005 04:21 AM
Well, I didn't shoot the stick out of his hand. After all, I have a pair of Sigs and no Glock.
A little more backstory to illustrate what could have happened. It just so happened that evening that my old lady and myself were returning from the range as it started to get dark. I had enough firepower in the back of the van to hold off Canada's elite armed forces (all 1000 of them ;) ) . I forget what the reason was at the time, but my hands weren't full of anything since I was going to get a better parking place or something before unloading.
The dude himself wasn't ready to be reasoned with - I didn't even bother. He kept on swearing and hitting the walls and generally being bizarre for an extended period of time.
We backed off and got out of the building, as he had not just the stick as an advantage but we'd have had to go up about a dozen stairs to get to him. It's a no win in my book - a clear shot, yes, but I wasn't going to subject the old lady to a graphic tour of what the insides of a nutcase looked like.
I realized I now had two problems: nutcase who could come up on the van before I could safely drive away, and securing the safety of a dozen firearms and the old lady at the same time. It left driving away for me out of the question, and I didn't want to leave the weapons unattended.
I sent the old lady to go find the first pay phone she could get to and call the police, which was a few blocks away, climbed into the back of the van, and waited.
I grabbed the AK, a 75 round drum, and kept a clear line of sight on the front of the building since I had less than a 30 ft distance between the lobby doors and the back of the van. With both rear doors open, I had a clear view of the oncoming traffic, since we were on a one-way street, so I could see the police cars coming and wouldn't be mistaken for a nut with an AK, and keep an eye on the front of the building. I was also shielded from direct view from anyone within the building.
I have no legal obligation to retreat in this state, nor do I have the ability (right ankle is no longer functional in any sense of the world) to do so at any real speed. I can walk and that's it.
About 20 minutes pass. The old lady comes back long before the police arrive. We wait. It takes a half hour. I put down the AK discreetly, and nobody ever notices.
The first responders arrive, and take another half hour with the remainder of the police force here in town to talk the idiot down from getting himself killed.
It turns out the landlord decided to rent to a gentleman with Tourette's who was profoundly unstable without telling any of the other tenants. The landlord laughed when he heard I'd called the cops and wondered why I was so threatened by the stick - until the detective said I'd been remarkably reasonable for not shooting the guy because it was a weapon.
After spending a couple nights in for observation, I never saw the dude again - which is just as well because I didn't want to deal with confrontation #2.
The upshot of the story was the humor in unloading the van of all the weapons with the local police present - one of the newer members of the force asked to see a couple not for the purposes of investigation but because his wife wouldn't let him have the ones we were carring into the apartment.
All in all it worked out well, even if the landlord was a little afraid of us until we moved out.
February 9th, 2005 07:10 AM
WHat Sad and sorry shape of guysmeof us are.. i to am not going to be in any fistacuffs back back and loss of about 45% range of motion of right are 4 shoulder surgreys there...
Plus im built for comfot not speed :smily1094
So i would have Covered who ever i was with retreat and yes i would have had gun in hand while ordering this guy to stay back or i would fire then get away far enough that some one could callor go for the police
Then just wait for the police to show up
Last edited by Bud White; February 9th, 2005 at 07:11 AM.
Reason: Spelling sucks espically in the early morning
February 9th, 2005 09:23 AM
Well I didn't notice any stairs mentioned in th einitial scenario. I would have backed out and off and waited for police too. I don't give advantage to anyone and going UP after him is stupid. I am still built for some speed, but not THAT much speed. Would rather retreat than have to fight or shoot the guy.
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