Assaulted at a party. Shoot or not? real situation - Page 3

Assaulted at a party. Shoot or not? real situation

This is a discussion on Assaulted at a party. Shoot or not? real situation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think you would probably be justified assuming nothing had been said to them prior. However, two intoxicated men with boxcutters would probably not go ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    I think you would probably be justified assuming nothing had been said to them prior. However, two intoxicated men with boxcutters would probably not go over well in civil court actions.

    Of course.... look what 14 guys with boxcutters accomplished on September 11th....
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  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Don't sweat it, beemer. I think what you were trying to convey came across quite clearly.

    The rest of us need to ease up on the confrontational rhetoric and just work with the information that has been provided.

    My answer is, as a default, use deadly force against knife-wielding assailants. I am no LEO, so my method would be to verbally placate or pacify the BGs while attempting to remove myself and other innocents from the situation. If the assailants pressed their attack, they would be shot without warning or verbal commands. If my hand touches the gun, it will only be to draw. Otherwise, my hands will be out front in a defensive or surrendering gesture.

    In my case, drawing means that my weapon will, barring immediate and voluntary surrender - within about 0.5 seconds, be discharged in the direction of the threat until the threat subsides.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  3. #33
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    Ok, so its college BS, I know a thing or two about that. These situations usually start over something stupid, and escalate rather quickly.

    First of all, was your friend under the influence of anything? Even a couple of drinks? Details like this are extremely important to the response. If your friend was, your should probably have a talk with him about not carrying a gun when he is drinking. And should probably try to discourage him from carrying at parties anyway. They tend to be crowded and full of drunks, not a good place to have to try to keep control of a weapon. I have carried into exactly one party during college, I was sober and already out doing something and carrying when a female friend needed help leaving a situation. Firearm stayed concealed, no one knew it was there. If I was actually going just to hang out, I would not be carrying.

    Your friend's verbal exchange would probably also have been seen as an escalation of the situation, and in Ohio, that would mean self defense can no longer be claimed.

    Are you going to claim that two really drunk/ high guys with box-cutters pose a lethal threat that you can not safely retreat to your car from? In order to really use a knife, some training is required, and with impaired motor skills, and a flimsy/short blade of a box cutter, that could be kind of hard for your defense attorney to prove. I'm not saying that they aren't dangerous, I've had a drunk try to stab me with a broken bottle, but his motor skills were lacking so I was able to avoid getting cut and knock it out of his hands.

    Too many unanswered questions about the situation, but with the info given, even though I am more prone than most members to be in a situation like this, I would be unarmed, and probably not have shot them even if I had been. Retreat, or meet them with less than lethal force, especially with a disparity of numbers, and the BG's being trashed.
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  4. #34
    Member Array plblark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    KS CC laws are completely unambiguous. Anyone can read them on the KS Legislature website.
    Howdy from MN. We've had Shall Issue Permits since 2003 and the finer points of our law are STILL not hashed out where it matters most: Case Law.

    There are tones of scenarios and situations where the law is BLACK AND WHITE and you should be OK that are really scary legally because there's no clear case law to tell you how it has been decided in the past. You're really up th the decision of 12 sheeple and a judge. That is SCARY.

    test cases are for other people. Even a "Good shoot" will ruin your life. You'll still be alive, but it will NOT leave you unaffected.
    Last edited by plblark; January 25th, 2007 at 04:45 PM.
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  5. #35
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    I stopped at my friends house today to talk further with him about the incident. At first, he was kind of suspicious as to why I needed more info, I think he thought he was in some kind of trouble or something. I thought it was funny, but anyway. I first asked him if he had anything to drink that night. He told me he did, but hadn't prior to the altercation. I told him that was good, and for future reference, don't ever mix guns and drinking, because bad things happen. The second question I asked was if he said anything in the house prior to the altercation. He told me he went in, told Veronica, the owner of the house happy birthday. Then he said that he didn't want to be around these two individuals so hes going to leave. The two guys and my friend never had words until after he left the house I guess. They came out and asked him if he had a problem while presenting their weapons. He told them there was no problem and that they were leaving. I told him after we were done talking that even with my job as a LE officer, that I couldn't give him a clear cut answer as I did before. What some others have mentioned, and I 100% agree with, is that it really comes down to the people in the jury box. Also, I don't view one person with a box cutter as near as much of a threat as 2. Also I view someone that is on any mind altering substance much more of a threat than someone sober. I've dealt with people who have done things they wouldn't even consider doing sober.

  6. #36
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted
    Also, I don't view one person with a box cutter as near as much of a threat as 2.
    Well I can certainly agree with that! I'd say that two people with weapons are about four times the threat of one person with a weapon.

  7. #37
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    As far as cocking the hammer in his pocket and that scaring them off ... Glad it worked for him.

    Here's my take:
    I'd be VERY careful about cocking the hammer on a revolver in your pocket unless the situation is going to require a PRECISE shot. We're talking hostage rescue here.

    In this case, taking it out and going Double Action would probably be better if it got that far.

    Here's why: Adrenaline does funny things. He now has a cocked SA revolver in his pocket and if he snags a finger or etc on drawing from the pocket, trouble awaits. After the fact, lowering the hammer while adrenaline can be a worry too. Add to that I don't think they could even hear the hammer from inside the pocket. At least on mine I don't think they could have without a PA mic in the pocket with it.

    Short form: If I were to decide a warning was necessary, producing the gun is probably more effective than cocking the hammer. If we were talking a situation where he might need to shoot from the pocvket in a surprise situation, it might be different.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    I have no doubt in your mind you are thinking through all the steps in this scenario, but you aren't putting them down. When writing stuff like this it is like my old math professor told me, show all your work. If you get the wrong answer you still get credit for correct process. I was bad about that...anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    I wasn't trying to write a book on these forums, so if my story lacks some detail then thats why.
    I understand your point BMW. Dont worry this was also told to me. Even when you know what all happened (as I did in my situation) it is hard to put even half of the details that are needed to make this decision. I understand where you are coming from but in the same regard I had to clarify many points of my situation for others help.
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  9. #39
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    I think there could have been other ways to deescalate the situation. Personally, I'd do everything I could to avoid having to reveal my firearm if that means being overly polite and apologetic.

    It seems to me that if cocking the hammer changed their plans, then maybe being more polite could have too. The bottom line is that if he didn't feel like he was in imminent and inescapable danger, he shouldn't have touched his gun.

    Someone else made a great comment about loosing your ego when you carry.

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plblark View Post
    Howdy from MN. We've had Shall Issue Permits since 2003 and the finer points of our law are STILL not hashed out where it matters most: Case Law.

    There are tones of scenarios and situations where the law is BLACK AND WHITE and you should be OK that are really scary legally because there's no clear case law to tell you how it has been decided in the past. You're really up th the decision of 12 sheeple and a judge. That is SCARY.

    test cases are for other people. Even a "Good shoot" will ruin your life. You'll still be alive, but it will NOT leave you unaffected.
    While case law is lacking, common sense on the part of the permit holder should prevail. If one is not an "idiot with a gun," one should be fine for the most part. Look for trouble and it will find you. The law in KS says that one is not obligated to retreat, but that doesn't mean that one should not attempt escape without shooting if possible.

    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  11. #41
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    Simple...

    Youth + Alcohol = Trouble...

    Stay away...or...don't take a weapon with you...hard to defend!

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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye07 View Post
    Your friend's verbal exchange would probably also have been seen as an escalation of the situation, and in Ohio, that would mean self defense can no longer be claimed.
    But wait, what of the notion of having turned around and tried to leave? Doesn't that sort of "reset" the situation? You could have exchanged the nastiest words in the world, but I would think that after you've ceased, said, "Enough with this, I'm leaving," then if they come after you, they are the ones perpetuating and escalating from words to violence . . . But I'm no expert.


    Are you going to claim that two really drunk/ high guys with box-cutters pose a lethal threat that you can not safely retreat to your car from? In order to really use a knife, some training is required, and with impaired motor skills, and a flimsy/short blade of a box cutter, that could be kind of hard for your defense attorney to prove.
    Are you kidding? First of all, how drunk and/or debilitated they are is not something most people would be able to determine with anything resembling reliability. You have to assume they have the intent, means, and opportunity to do you grave bodily harm. Have you seen that thread about the corrections officer who was slashed? Wasn't that done with some puny blade of some sort? (None of the slashes were more than about an inch deep.) Do you really believe that just because a person has not studied knife fighting from some Filipino master that he can't be a deadly threat with a boxcutter? Let's have one BG grab you and hold your arms, and the other one loses a bit of his reason 'cause he's buzzed and angry, and he uses that "flimsy/short blade" to slice across your throat, severing two arteries and opening your trachea. OR if he just decides to carve on your face and chest for a while...

  13. #43
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    But wait, what of the notion of having turned around and tried to leave? Doesn't that sort of "reset" the situation? You could have exchanged the nastiest words in the world, but I would think that after you've ceased, said, "Enough with this, I'm leaving," then if they come after you, they are the ones perpetuating and escalating from words to violence . . .
    Actually, no. The initial mutual engagement in escalation isn't automatically reset and discarded as provocation. If two combatants are going at it, verbally, but one turns and withdraws while the other continues the "fight," it's generally considered the same darned engagement. And will likely be considered provocation of the event by both folks. The only thing that's reasonably assured to be seen as no provocation is ... well ... no provocation. No engagement, no escalation, no exchange of words, clear words/actions that are witnessed as meaning nothing other than not wanting to be a part of anything more than the failed discussion. Anything beyond that, particularly with witness galore is often found to be the noose that one used to hang one's self. Happens with frightening frequency. Just check the local court room for plenty of examples in the next 60 days or so. Happens all the time where a war of words turns violent. True, as the direct result of one guy's violence, but also as a direct result of both combatants' engagement.

    That said, every situation's different. Depends on the "level" of those words, what witnesses will have registered in terms of intensity, etc. In general, I'm in agreement that words need not become violence, and if someone else is willing to take it to some next level, then I'm going to make it clear it won't result in my being attacked and overpowered. But God (and my attorney) help me if I provoked the situation with a "pointy stick" (my words) that were delivered earlier in front of witnesses ...
    Last edited by ccw9mm; January 26th, 2007 at 06:17 AM.
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  14. #44
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey
    ...what of the notion of having turned around and tried to leave? Doesn't that sort of "reset" the situation?
    Nope. There is no "reset." Only time can reset a situation, and it takes a whole lot more than a few minutes and walking away. Like, overnight at least, and there have even been cases where a jury concluded that overnight was not enough.

    And this is not just speculation. There is plenty of precedent. There are guys sitting in jail right now because they escalated a confrontation, but not to the lethal level, and then the OTHER guy escalated it all the way to lethal and they responded appropriately. Except that their involvement in the initial escalations resulted in the jury concluding that they were guilty. So now they sit in jail.

    When you are carrying you have to be careful to do NOTHING to escalate ANY confrontation. You have to completely put your pride aside. You don't necessarily have to retreat (though in some states you DO!), but you have to be willing to shut your mouth and remain passive until the OTHER guy escalates it to a level that justifies a lethal response. Anything less than that and you are ASKING to be sent to prison.

  15. #45
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    Jeffrey, as was already stated, no, there is no reset. The fact that they exchanged words basically means that they are both at fault. Even though one side tried to leave.

    As far as the second post. I know a knife doesnt have to be massive or someone have a whole lot of training to do damage, and I did say that I didn't discount them as not being dangerous. I've seen the pictures, and I have called for ambulances after patrons at the bar I work at were slashed with broken bottles, no, its not pretty, and I'm sure it hurts. However, there were two of them with box cutters, who apparently were intoxicated, and aside from the guy with the pistol, two other people trying to leave, making it 2 on 3. In that situation it is kind of hard for one BG to grab while the other slashes away at your throat, at least if the buddies have any sense about how to fight at all.

    If it was one on 2, it would be a different situation. But even if it was one on 2, with the same circumstances, claiming self defense and beating the charges would probably be a pretty hard thing to do if shots were fired.
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