How to be seen as GG at a mall shooting

How to be seen as GG at a mall shooting

This is a discussion on How to be seen as GG at a mall shooting within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK, there are plenty of threads about the Utah shooting and the ***** who did it. "Solejman Talovic, an 18-year-old Bosnian refugee who lived in ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array TechGuy's Avatar
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    How to be seen as GG at a mall shooting

    OK, there are plenty of threads about the Utah shooting and the ***** who did it. "Solejman Talovic, an 18-year-old Bosnian refugee who lived in Salt Lake City" Why can't he stay in his own country and pull this crap? . . . I digress, that is another question.

    Say you are at a mall / store / event and a shooting starts up. The police will treat EVERYONE as a suspect until time allows to check. So if you are near the BG and you as a GG with CWP pull your gun, how do we keep from getting shot by the police thinking we are the BG?
    Would you pull your gun after hearing first shot or only if/when you are close or only if you see the BG?

    If this thread has been done before, please point me to it. Thanks, cwl.
    ___________________________________
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. "
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  2. #2
    Member Array Huzar's Avatar
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    spinoff from the UT mall shooting

    OK, assume the following scenario: someone comes in to the mall and starts shooting the place up. You look around to see what your options are and you realize that you are in a position where you can't move away without being noticed so you have to go on the offensive or become a target. Because of the layout of the mall, nerves, the shooter being somewhat hidden by a pilar or something you can't hit him (reason does not matter, what matters is that you have a gun and he has a gun and it's a standoff).

    What do you do when LEO's start rushing in. OK, put down the gun is the first one, but because of the spot you're in it's hard to do it without getting yourself exposed (it's hard for me to describe the scenario but I'm trying to express the fact that laying down your firearm might put you in danger from the BG). How do you handle it? I know it's not something that can be planned for, you have to follow the instructions from LEO's (that's the most important thing) but are there any other thoughts? comments? (please do not even think to bring up the CCW badge).

    Btw, what made me think about it? One of the officers involved was an off duty LEO. Since it's UT there was a high possibility for CCW holder involvment. That could have led to the good guy being in the crosschairs as the article says that the LEO's that stormed the building treated everyone as danger till they positevely identified them not to be (makes sense to me, cause how would they know how many people were involved).

  3. #3
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    Similar topics, I'm going to merge these threads. Excellent point, and something I've thought about in the past...how to involve yourself in a situation and not get killed by the responding officers?
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

    "They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper

  4. #4
    Member Array vinnie's Avatar
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    IMHO, in a crowded place like that I would get outta there ASAP! I would only pull it out if the gunman got near me or those that I'm responsible for. I would avoid pulling it out at all costs.

    In that situation there are many people who would possibly consider you a BG since you have a gun and no uniform. Chaos is normally what happens in that situation and I wouldn't want to be mistakenly identified by police or a witness.

    In addition you would have a hard time justifying the shot with all the other people around. You probably wouldn't be able to get a clear shot with no one behind the BG.

    I could be wrong in my choice, but I don't want to risk being opened up to jail, lawsuits or worse by pulling it out and trying to be a hero. If I can avoid it at all costs, I will. I will only pull it out if the threat is immediate and directly at me. In a smaller area with a more controlled environment I might have a different response.

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed Vinnie + 230 gr.

    I clear kydex only if I am in immediate imminent danger.
    If I were unholstered then the question as to whether I'm a GG or not would be obvious to the police as well as those other mall shoppers and witnesses around me.
    If I were not then I'm not, as there is no question while I make direct and quick attempts to put danger as far away from me and my family as possible.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #6
    Member Array Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team American View Post
    Similar topics, I'm going to merge these threads. Excellent point, and something I've thought about in the past...how to involve yourself in a situation and not get killed by the responding officers?
    LOL... You had me confused there for a moment :) Anyways, thanks for merging those as they are nearly identical and it just looks like I took longer to type mine up as this one wasn't there when I started typing.

    In regards to the "get out and don't clear the gun": I agree, but the scenario that I'm considering is one that you can't do that so.... what then?

  7. #7
    Member Array vinnie's Avatar
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    Don't really know...

    If it was 1 BG and I had a clear shot that I was sure would land (and it was a direct danger to me and mine) then I would probably take the shot and then avoid any of the press that I could.

    Multiple BG's, tough choice. Probably depend on the situation at the time along with other choices... (can I hide, what are my chances of eliminating all hostiles, etc)

  8. #8
    Member Array Robin Hood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnie View Post
    (and it was a direct danger to me and mine)
    Me too, But...

    I never expected this but having it happen in your back yard... Call it emotion but it's got me thinking twice about it. I think I would have to do something. When you look at the faces on TV of those kids wrapped in blankets sitting outside the mall... Once my family is safe, I might find myself going back in.

    I've got a lot of thinking to do.
    "Guns aren’t toys! They’re for protecting your family, hunting dangerous or delicious animals and keeping the King of England out of your face!"
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    Keep your booger hook off the kill switch 'till you bead the boogeyman!

  9. #9
    Member Array Huzar's Avatar
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    I would like to ask everyone to stay on topic: the issue is not whether you would do something or go back or whatever. Issue is that you have a gun, BG has a gun and cops storm in. What compounds the issue is that the second you drop your gun the BG can take you out as he will be able to safely come out from behind the cover and you're in the spot where you can't go anywhere. I know it's a very screwed up scenario but that's the cards you've been dealt (think of it as the worst case scenario).

    Edit: I just realized that maybe the merger wasn't that great idea after all as I'm after different set of answers cause I already have my gun out. So my note on staying on topic really makes little sense in light of the first post of the thread that mine got merged into.

  10. #10
    Member Array Robin Hood's Avatar
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    Ok, First own and use a good holster. One that you can reholster one handed with out looking. Hands kill. Cops are going to be looking at hands. If you can stow you gun quickly, safely you are less likley to be considered and emediate threat. Then comply with officers.

    Call 911 and leave the line open, in your pocket maybe. Tell 911 that you are a good guy/CCW holder and you are armed. Describe what you look like and your location.

    These arre just a few off the top of my head.
    "Guns aren’t toys! They’re for protecting your family, hunting dangerous or delicious animals and keeping the King of England out of your face!"
    -Crusty the Clown

    Keep your booger hook off the kill switch 'till you bead the boogeyman!

  11. #11
    Member Array Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
    Call 911 and leave the line open, in your pocket maybe. Tell 911 that you are a good guy/CCW holder and you are armed. Describe what you look like and your location.

    These arre just a few off the top of my head.
    That's a really good one. Now that you mention it I remember hearing it before! Sad thing is that in CA you're very likely to get the "if it's emergency press 1, otherwise stay on the line" You press 1 you will still be waiting for the next operator as when SHTF everyone and their brother calls!

  12. #12
    Member Array TechGuy's Avatar
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    This thread has taken a little bit of a turn. . . The question was if you are in the mall and shots fired. . . the BG is near so you pull you gun and the police / mall security are on their way, they see you first. Are they going to shoot first, ask questions later? OK that is a different quesiton but the first on stands. You can't pull gun and constantly yell "I'M A GG, DON"T SHOOT ME!" while trying to take out the BG. So how do you keep from getting shot by other GGs? Hey, he has a gun, must be a BG, shoot him too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
    Me too, But...Once my family is safe, I might find myself going back in. I've got a lot of thinking to do.
    From these replies so far and other threads I have read on this forum, guess I would NOT draw unless BG is right there, protect "me and mine" and get the heck out of there. VERY little chance at all I would EVER go back in if out safe. LEOs would never ask you to go.
    ___________________________________
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    John Stuart Mill

  13. #13
    Member Array produman's Avatar
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    First and for most do not point your gun at any LEO. I would try to tell them what is going on with out taking my eye of BG. But you have to remember to obey all their commands. Hopefully they are smart enough to realize what is going on and direct their attention to the BG. Very tough situation.
    "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."
    General George Patton

  14. #14
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Let's further complicate the scenario.
    You're in the mall and for whatever reason you are engaged in a standoff with the kid who thinks it's the Matrix. He knows your location and that you are armed, you know his and that he has killed.
    Then you see another armed individual, or several. Remember that in Utah the kid was stopped by an off duty LEO.
    Now this new guy sees you and your gun, you see his.
    How many here would assume that the original target (Matrix kid) has got reinforcements? How many would also expect this unknown and unidentifiable plain clothes cop, or fellow CCWer, to ask first or just shoot?

    It's one thing to establish your identity to uniformed response teams, my reaction to their arrival would involve a lot of unarmed & horizontal compliance, but a wholly different game of trust when the first help that arrives is not in uniform.

    Where ever possible I would get out of Dodge.
    Remember, Get Out Of Dodge is GOOD.

  15. #15
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    be in the parking lot with the other witnesses

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