Mall shooting poll

This is a discussion on Mall shooting poll within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Family out first to safety and then engage BG from cover. There is no way that I could face my family knowing that I COULD ...

View Poll Results: What is your response to a mall shooting when you're close?

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  • Family first - this is not my fight

    45 20.74%
  • I can't sit by and let a nut job shoot people

    86 39.63%
  • I can't sit idly by and let a terrorist shoot people

    45 20.74%
  • No engagement unless directly targeted - immediate bug out

    27 12.44%
  • No engagement unless directly targeted - sit tight and observe

    9 4.15%
  • Engage while retreating - tactical bug out

    20 9.22%
  • Engage at first / best tactical opportunity - ambush

    67 30.88%
  • Engage with total war - damn the torpedoes

    9 4.15%
  • Other - tell us your plan

    11 5.07%
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Thread: Mall shooting poll

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    Family out first to safety and then engage BG from cover. There is no way that I could face my family knowing that I COULD have saved lives. I can't imagine watching the news and thinking what if.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

    -- Theodore Roosevelt --

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    If I'm with the family, I get them to safetyany way possible. Tactical retreat, whatever.

    By myself, take cover and engage from a covered position.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  4. #48
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    First, I would like to echo Redneck's (I believe) comments about dropping the gun and following any directives given to you be any LEOs that arrive on scene. No need to be a friendly fire casualty by not listening to them.

    Now, there is no way I could go home and look in the mirror if I didn't do something in a situation like this. The thought of protecting family doesn't even work because them going away from the shooter while I am going towards him would take any focus off of them. The BG would be much more interested in the person shooting at him than the people running away.

    Sixto mentioned that people don't know how they will react under fire until they've been there. That couldn't possibly be more true. Many people think they will do something, but then freeze. In a situation like this, that may be for the best. If you're not trained and prepared things could go very badly for you. That, in turn, would be an argument against armed citizens. If you're prepared you're less likely to freeze in the situation. If you happen to go into the situation already knowing what it sounds like when a bullet passes, there is no reason to assume you'll react any differently than you would any other time.

    Whether you decide to act, retreat, or seek cover just do it quickly. Don't be a sitting duck waiting to be found.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
    - Lt. Col. Oliver North

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    One thing that is swimming around my brain reading some of the responses is the pucker factor. Most of us never have been shot at, or have seen any sort of combat. The war kind or the street kind.
    I wonder how many those are Rambo in their own mind would change their position on the poll once the shooting began... I know that once lead starts flying, things, particularly minds change rapidly. Very few people who have not trained and mentally prepped for such a situation would actually seek out an active shooter to engage him.
    Couldn't agree more. Even those trained for a firefight might find the experience overwhelming if and when it happens. I'm confident in my training, but I realize I'm not 100% confident in my ability to cope with that situation.

    Assuming I can overcome human nature, I don't think I could let a man continue murdering people.

    I'm considering these factors:
    Mall security where I live is either non-existent, is extremely limited, or very stealthy (since I've not seen one yet). I have little confidence in their training, equipment, or that their interest is safety over loss pervention.

    The tactical and marksmanship skills of the local LEOs I've met has left me unimpressed. (I know that's at least borderline mall ninja talk; take it as you will)

    The police are not there; if they were I'd stay out of their way. In the time it takes for someone to call 911, one could draw, fire, and reholster. By the time help arrives, I would hope to be behind cover, on the phone with 911, and looking non-threatening to everyone.

    I have no children. I can't imagine how much my thoughts will change when I do.

    As with any situation, there's a whole lot of ifs.
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

    DaddyWarcrimes.com

  6. #50
    Member Array Texas Yankee's Avatar
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    Don't know what I would actually do but my plan would be to get my family to ground first. Then if I have a shot, take it. I don't plan on going hunting however.

  7. #51
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Take care of me and mine first.

    Due to the legal climate that we live in I would escape and evade and only shoot to provide a "tactical retreat". After we are out I would be on the phone to 911 and watch our egress point.

    I don't like the reponse, but that's the best you will get from me.

    Biker

  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array Dakotaranger's Avatar
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    If I've got a shot I've got to take it. While my primary responsibility is my family, I don't know that I could live with myself if I did nothing.
    "[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
    They are left in full possession of them."

    Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~Alexander Hamilton

  9. #53
    Member Array stoneypete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Only Glock View Post
    Are you saying that in MA, selfe defense does not extend to the defense of an innocent third party? That is pathetic.
    Outside of the four walls I call my home, I have a duty to retreat if possible. If I was to escape with my family and return to the scene and kill the BG, the charge would be murder. Maybe even premeditated since I was out of danger and made the choice to return with my weapon.

    I'm not saying it's right. It's just the reality I face everyday.
    'The assailant chooses the time, location and method of attack.

    Since they are unlikely to let you know ahead of time when, where and how violent they're going to be, you should always be prepared.' - matiki

  10. #54
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    Thumbs down No engagement unless directly targeted - immediate bug out

    I chose "No engagement unless directly targeted - immediate bug out" because according to Ohio carry law it is illegal to use deadly force if any venue of retreat is available. In a mall there are usually ways to retreat, in which case I would be forced to run away, or fire and go to prison.

    Even if it happened in my house I am held to the same restrictions. If I can go out the back door I am legally required to do so rather than shoot the gunman who broke into my house.

    (Obviously if family is at threat the rules change)

  11. #55
    Member Array MD_Willington's Avatar
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    I have a wife and two small children, I'd like to keep them safe/alive, so I'd have to say we would "get the hell out" unless directly engaged.

    Sorry if that sounds bad, but I want to get my family as far away from someone like that if possible.

    Be Prepared. - That's the motto of the Boy Scouts.

    "Be prepared for what?" someone once asked Baden-Powell, the founder of Scouting,

    "Why, for any old thing." said Baden-Powell.

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    My responsibility is to my 4 yr. old and 6mo. old first, my wife second, my employees third...and everybody else on the planet who chooses to not be proactive about their own individual safety comes under consideration after them.
    Then there is the law which does not allow in my state for CCW licensees to go off doing police work, not to mention common sense indicating that roaming through a mall in search of trouble is foolish even as it might be heroic..IF you succeed.

    I voted; "No engagement unless directly targeted - immediate bug out"

    - Janq's primary duty is to survive so as to not be late for dinner
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #57
    Member Array Amend2's Avatar
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    The options are not all mutually exclusive. I agree with others in the sense that your first thought should be cover and concealment for you and those with you. Analyze what can be done to stop the threat and what you can contribute (in light of what weapon you are carrying at the time), look for an opportunity that does not endanger other innocent people, then do the best you can.

  14. #58
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Pretty interesting to read responses - especially those who have to worry about shoot/no-shoot laws like the gent. from MA. That just flat out sucks. Here in AZ, one is justified in shooting to prevent the commission of a felony in progress. I don't think the aftermath would be any prettier, though.

    One thing one must keep in mind about a situation like this... a person who commits an act like this is not in there for the criminal intent we are so used to. Someone who does this knows they are not leaving that property in anything except a plastic baggy (or multiples of them). They will keep shooting until they are dead. When they run out of ammo, they will find some other way. Whether or not they suddenly have a personal crisis once THEY come under fire shouldn't be a concern.... IMO, anyways...

    That being said, I will get my family out first. I will suffice to say that I would probably attempt some type of ambush. That may prove impossible, though. Morally, though, I don't think I could live with myself if I just let this continue. I believe Redneck mentioned it, but most of the people in malls are kids and women. Not to mention that while my friend and roomate is away in the military he asked me to take care of his wife.... she works in the mall at a Bath & Body Works. There are a lot of factors, though. Stay flexible to the situation and obey law enforcement without question.

    I will also say that whoever is was that mentioned being sure of your target and that its not a cop is dead right. Also be wary that they may be another CCWer.

    The very idea of something like this going down is one of the scariest scenarios I can think of. I don't think there is any kind of FoF training that can fully prepare you life-and-death shooting scenarios. You can goto Gunsite or Gabe or Ayoob... but until real bullets are traveling through the air and your fight or flight kicks in.... nobody knows how they are going to react.
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    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

  15. #59
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    I chose "No engagement unless directly targeted - immediate bug out" because according to Ohio carry law it is illegal to use deadly force if any venue of retreat is available. In a mall there are usually ways to retreat, in which case I would be forced to run away, or fire and go to prison.

    Even if it happened in my house I am held to the same restrictions. If I can go out the back door I am legally required to do so rather than shoot the gunman who broke into my house.

    (Obviously if family is at threat the rules change)
    Not quite right there garg, look at the Ohio AG's bookelt ahnded out for CHL holders
    http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevent...0040319-72.pdf

    In Ohio, there is no duty to retreat from one’s own home.
    There is no duty to retreat if there is no manner by which you can
    retreat safely. However, being in one’s own home is not a license
    to use deadly force against an attacker. The person who is
    attacked in his own home, without fault of his own, may stand his
    ground and use deadly force only if he reasonably and honestly
    believed that deadly force was necessary to prevent serious bodily
    harm or death. If the person does not have this belief or he created
    the confrontation, he cannot use deadly force and must leave the
    situation, even if he is in his own home.
    Defense of Others
    A person may defend another only if the protected person
    would have had the right to use self-defense. Under Ohio law, a
    person may defend family members, friends or strangers. However,
    just as if he were protecting himself, a person cannot use any
    more force than is reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm
    threatened.
    A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect
    another, has to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that
    the person he protected was in immediate danger of serious bodily
    harm or death and that deadly force was the only way to protect the
    person from that danger. Furthermore, the defendant must also
    show that the protected person was not at fault for creating the
    situation and did not have a duty to leave or avoid the situation.
    You can defend others in Ohio and have no duty to retreat in your house if your life is threatened. You only have to leave your house if there is not a threat or belief of deadly or serious harm. We do not however, have a stand your ground law, and are still open to civil lawsuits. IANAL.

    I don't have a family around usually, and I couldn't live with letting people die if I could stop it, I would probably try to engage the shooter if possible for me to do with decent cover available and depending on other circumstances.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  16. #60
    TPO
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    I would have no other choice but to ask my wife to safely flee, call the local LEO's, & give an accurate description of me. My wife and I have discussed & trained for different "bad things happening to good people" scenerios many times. My wife is a citizen not a Peace Officer; but she has a CHL, is discplined and trained. I would ask God for His Guidance as I moved out to engage the BG to the best of my abilities. The LEO(Peace Officer) who was there, off-duty, obvisouly did the very same/similar thing.
    I try to always carry my badge and ID holder along with my pistol and two spare magazines whenever/wherever I go when not wearing my uniform. I would further be yelling at the BG that I was the police. I would comply with ALL commands that responding LEOs made of me; including putting down my pistol. I would hope for the Lord's protection during these tense moments until a firm ID of myself was made and the BG subdued (if not already accomplished)......it aint my "back-yard". Being a hard-wired sheep dog is sometimes very difficult and dangerous; but I know from this forum that many of my fellow citizen/sheepdogs and brother LEO/sheepdogs understand this. It is good to be able to discuss and read about various situations and hear "ones of the same kind" respond.

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