February 19th, 2007 11:51 AM
As others have said, if the abductee is someone related to me or someone I know well and the abductor is not, I would intervene (using deadly force if necessary). If both of them are strangers, then I don't really know the situation. It could be a kidnapping, or it could be that the person being 'abducted' has mental problems or is a kid throwing a tantrum. In this sort of situation, I'd probably call 911 and try to prevent them from leaving using non-violent means (never revealing my weapon). Other than that, I'd just be a good witness.
Now the initial scenario just specified a larger person dragging off a smaller one. If the situation were different, say an abduction at gun or knife point, then the response would be different. Someone threatening a person with a knife or gun probably isn't trying to help out a troubled relative.
February 19th, 2007 01:15 PM
Tough one for sure. I'd definately yell out for someone to call 911 and get attention to what is going on over there. As for going for the gun, don't really know. Tough call sure sure.
February 19th, 2007 01:23 PM
February 19th, 2007 02:01 PM
If it's my daughter, it's easy: shoot him. Lots.
If not, it's a tricky situation, and an ugly one at that.
Ya gotta KNOW it's an abduction before you intervene. You don't want to go messing around in something that isn't what it looks like to you- - the vigilante would be cop & etc. is waiting to bite you in the butt.
But if I knew it was an abduction, man, I don't think I could just stand there and take down a license number.
Block the way out. Call 9-1-1. Do whatever your position allows and use whatever is available.
I don't think I'd draw on on the guy unless he pulled a gun or knife- then it's shoot.
"...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."
Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.
February 19th, 2007 02:23 PM
Many years ago a man in NYC saw an abduction occurring right in front of him. Three men were forcing a woman into the back of the truck. So he stopped his car and ordered them out at gunpoint.
The woman's brothers, who were helping her into the back of the truck, were a bit upset at Gen. George Patton.
Be very, very careful about intervening in a third-party situation. The situation may not be what you think it is.
February 19th, 2007 02:32 PM
I can see offering my mother in law... but I am NOT giving them my car.. unless it has my mother in law in it. Then I'd have to analyze the situation a bit more..
Originally Posted by retsupt99
February 19th, 2007 04:03 PM
As many here know, this happened to a friend and it did not end happily.
I would not be shy about injecting myself into that situation.
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"It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008
February 19th, 2007 05:20 PM
Shots will be fired and BG stopped instantly.
Someone else this like has been said is a bit trickier. If I feel it is an abduction then I will probably make a scene. When other people are paying attention and it is obvious that they also believe this to be an abduction I would then determine if Ishould draw. In this situation with many witnesses thinking the same thing I would be pretty well covered to draw. If it is a bratty child or mental problem the family member would probably not be happy about it but could explain there actions to the police who would be able to verify.
But i can not say for sure what I would do. If I am inmy car I put the fire dept light on the roof (still turned off) when they see it they think cop and run or if ineed to follow them to keep PD advised then they can ID me easier as the car with the light on the roof so they can find him faster. I know following would be a definate (atleast) if I were in confronted with this.
"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."
-James Earl Jones
February 19th, 2007 05:56 PM
Have I got a program?
Do I know who the players are?
Am I positive this is not a large male uc cop subduing a female perp?
Just food for thought. Things arent always what they seem. And it can be hard to know whats really going on.
And if you do intervene with deadly force on an unknown third party's behalf, welcome to 'test case 101'.
February 19th, 2007 06:23 PM
I can say this about the under cover cop scenario, if it IS a UC cop, then he would be putting cuffs on her. Not dragging her into the back of a car while she is continually trying to pull away / not be pulled into the car.
Cops do not, as a rule, generically abduct people they are picking up for braking various laws. They also do not point a gun at someone and yell for them to get into their car.
If I see a girl (child to young woman or old woman) being abducted, I will interject myself into the situation if I am by myself. If my kids are with me, then I become a good witness and I will follow them at a good distance while talking to the police on the cell phone.
As others have said, I am not going to be the last person to see someone alive without doing what I can to try and stop their abduction and murder. That is just not the kind of person I am. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I did nothing just to legally protect my own ass.
February 19th, 2007 06:28 PM
After you shoot the "BG" you find out he was the father of the young girl being dragged back to the car. She is a drug head and she is whacked out on crack.
I would be a good witness. I wont shoot anybody that I am not 100 percent sure he/her is a deadly threat to my or someone else's life.
There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those that don't.
February 19th, 2007 06:49 PM
OK. Here is the deal, life isn't fair.
You don't get all the information you need to accompish every task you need to accomplish. That's life!
Here are your choices: 1) don't do anything because you aren't sure. This involves the risk of having to live with seeing her picture in the obit column knowing you could have saved her.
2) react too swiftly and risk having to live with having shot her dad or boy friend.
3) adopt a "I'm not letting him leave with her" attitude and warn him that you will fire if he doesn't cease and desist. This obviously puts you into greater danger because you have warned a potention bad guy who may now produce a weapon and shoot you.
What would I do? Simple decision for me; it would be #3.
All I have to do is imagine my daughter in her place. I would hope to God that people would stop the guy from taking her.
I would have to make sure that he knew I was pointing a gun at him. If he continued to try to take her, I would wait until the last possible second but in the end, I would shoot him.
fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).
February 19th, 2007 07:39 PM
Police officers are not want to "drag" people to cars to begin with. They'll cuff then stuff, much safer for them and the arrested party.
Holding someone, anyone, not allowing anyone to be free to leave against their will IS kidnapping. Plain and simple, unless they have been arrested [ and then it is legal ].
In which case they are cuffed, then stuffed, not dragged through a parking lot to an unmarked car.
Does the child look like a minor? Does the dude act like a father talking to the party being dragged through the lot? What converstaio, if any, is taking place between the two parties? Is he telling her she is going home and to get her butt in the car?
If there is no conversation between the parties, the girl is really struggling [ as in fear for her life vs. just doesn't want dad to take here home ], these are all pretty good indicators if you are paying attention, really not getting excited and making rash decisons, but observing the "totality" of the situation, you should be able to determine within reason if the girl is in real trouble or not.
All the while I'm walking in their direction to intercept them at some point, gun may be out and down at my leg, or taken from a location and placed into a mex/appendix carry position in preparation for potentially having to use it yet keeping it hidden to some degree.
"Whats going on here?" when I'm close enough. Ready to react to the potential abductees reaction to being challenged. He could produce a firearm a that point, hidden previously, perhaps a knife or anything else that would constitute an escalation of force on his part to my question.
It could be the fights on to stop his actions, it could be it's a father and his teenage daughter. It could be either party is an EDP [ emotionally disturbed person ]. The scenario could go pretty bad quickly either way.
I rather think it is not a cop dragging anyone through a lot making a scene like this uncuffed to begin with. Thats not how cops work. If the girl is under arrest, and that violent and emotional, she'll be cuffed, and likely other B+W's are on going to be on scene before the girl is transported to a cruiser.
edited to add:
Sig P239, we posted with the same thoughts.
The mind is the limiting factor
Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
February 19th, 2007 11:59 PM
I think PaulG and AzQkr summed it up for me. I would never shoot unless it was a total last resort (which is the case in any situation) but I would NOT allow an adult male to pull what looks like an unwilling and frightened minor into a car without intervention. I would first intervene at distance with a loud command to let her go. At this point a LEO will identify self and I will calmly observe and memorize. If the 'victim' yells for me to help or the male tells me to mind my business my gun is drawn and aimed at the ground but I make sure he sees it as I repeat the command. I would only fire if he draws a weapon and starts to attack the girl or me.
My thought is that a predator, confronted by a grown man with a loud voice and a firearm may well let her go and flee. IF not, I can get more drastic as above.
I have thought about this myself before. Even before CCW, many years ago, I resolved not to be a bystander afraid to 'get involved' if I honestly thought someone was in danger. I remember as a boy of 12 being told by my mother about the Kitty Genovese case in New York when the lady was stabbed to death on the street and screamed and screamed but nobodby wanted to get involved. I thought all those people were screwey! I just turned 54 and still think they were screwey.
True, I may get bit on the butt for 'brandishing' or such, but I would rather take that chance than the chance of not helping a possible (likely) victim.
In Oklahoma, even we liberals like guns!
February 20th, 2007 08:42 AM
okay, so the uc was maybe, maybe skirting reality. Point being, there are a lot of unknowns, and more than one alternative to pointing your sportyforty at someone involved in a situation YOU know very little to nothing about.
Just like kong vs cellboy in the pizza shop video, lots of things you can do short of inserting your muzzle where it may not belong. Thats why I think cell phones with camera features are the answere to a lot 'what to do?' situations. If someone is abducting a person, and you make it very clear to them that you are not only on the phone with 911, you are filming their every move, more than likely, it will suffice. If it doesnt result in the abductor freeing their hostage, then it is still on film and the 911 tape as you continue to follow and update dispatch.
Heres a thought. What if the abductor really is a baaaad dude? And lets say by introducing your pistol that he now is really freaked and puts a gun to his hostages head and orders you to drop your roscoe. You dont comply immediately, and BANG, hostage is dead. Maybe, had you announced the call, and took pics with the cell phone this might not have escalated. Might have, dunno. Who knows what a kidnapper is thinking?
Or, if there is another abductor working interference control for the kidnapper prime. And you draw. Now, you're shot in the back of the head and there is no one to follow and update.
The cameraphone aint always the answere, but neither is drawing down on every goofy situation you walk up on. Once that gun is out, things can get really weird, really fast.
Trust me, I think there is a time and place for deadly force, just trying to encourage a lot of thought before bullets fly. Only you can decide when to interfere on the behalf of an unknown, and to what extent.
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