You see an abduction in progress.... - Page 3

You see an abduction in progress....

This is a discussion on You see an abduction in progress.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sorry - Duplicate...

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Thread: You see an abduction in progress....

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Sorry - Duplicate
    Last edited by PaulG; February 20th, 2007 at 09:49 AM. Reason: Dupicate post
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    jdsumner - I'm not saying that there aren't increased risks doing it my way. Sure, you could get shot by an accomplice or the BG could shoot the girl.

    But to my way of thinking, there isn't really much other choice that I could live with.

    If he pulls a gun, that is proof enough that if he gets her into his car, she is probably done for anyway. I won't let that happen if I can help it.

    The idea of letting him get her into a car and trying to follow and update dispatch brings to mind a high speed chase with reckless driving on the part of the bad guy trying to get away . . all this WITH AN INNOCENT MINOR IN THE CAR. Plus I don't know about you but I don't have any high speed driving training. It would be too easy to lose the other car.

    That, to me, is unacceptable.

    I'm not saying that your way won't work. It may be the best thing for you. No matter what we do: you way, may way or some other way, it could turn out very well or very badly.

    My point is, we ALL must decide what WE are willing to live with and act accordingly.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  3. #33
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    He's not leaving with the minor, one way or the other while I'm breathing.

    There are many ways to "stop" his actions. It will be his escalation, if any, not mine that determines the outcome.

    Good, bad, or ugly, either or both of us could end up in any three of those, but he's not leaving with the minor.

    His choice how he plays it, not mine. It could be my niece thats being taken. I'd have to think that the girl has parents, and uncles who would appreciate any intervention to assist the child in need.

    Cops don't drag anyone through parking lots as I mentioned before. Period. I have the driving training, but it would be easier to stop the perp before they get in the car, not afterwards, and giving chase endangers everyone on the road, not just the minor here.

    edited to add: I'm not playing cop by interjecting myself into this scenario, in case some think thats the intention here. I worked as one for almost a decade back east though, and have the mentality and training [ more than the dept gave me at the academy ]to act responsibly, yet act on the childs behalf in some way.

    Even if it is a dad and daughter scenario in the end, dad does not have the right to drag a child like that in public. If it is a dad, he'll be happy to wait for the police to get there to straighten out whats going on anyway, unless he's out of control.

    The expectation here would have to be that the person dragging the minor/child would expect to be questioned in public by someone, hopefully.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; February 20th, 2007 at 11:31 AM.
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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    I would try to help the girl or slow things down until police arrive but would call 911 first. As far as useing deadly force I think I would hold off bringing a gun into play due to the fact that I don't fully know what is going on. If I see a gun or knife then the situation changes.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array downrange's Avatar
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    i agree with PaulG for the most part. given the scenario though, BG or father, he's making a public scene and he himself should wait for the police at that point. if he doesn't then it seems a little suspicious to me. in that case, a nice folder can let air out of tires pretty quickly allowing the police to play catch up on the situation.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Gentlemen,
    I believe we are all on the same side. In all honesty, I dont know that he's leaving the scene with said minor. He will, at best have to tote an a$$ whippin'. At worst, he MAY get shot.
    My point was that without all the information, decisions will be difficult. Life changing perhaps. Almost guaranteed if a firearm becomes involved.
    Just as PaulG noted he was not trained in high speed driving, I am personally not trained in hostage rescue/negotiations. Brownie is, I am certain, more schooled than most on this forum to deal with this situation, because these are situations his job put him in. I am trained to shoot, and to think, mainly for myself and my family. Not necessarily for someone in a situation I dont have all the info on. If you'll note, I never espoused doing nothing. Just not using a hammer when a different tool might do better.
    Excellent job of some of the posters in response to the 'maybe its a father trying to collect his wayward child' scenario. If he is, yep, he'll wait for the leo. I would, anyways.
    Sometimes I just get the feeling that because this is a forum that puts a lot of focus on guns, that becomes the be all and end all. A permit is governed by one set of laws and statutes, while use of a weapon is governed by another.
    There are risks to be weighed against rewards in any situation that may escalate to drawn guns. I'd just like to think everyone is taking as much care in how they handle a situation as they did what gun and gear they carry.

    Dan

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by downrange View Post
    in that case, a nice folder can let air out of tires pretty quickly allowing the police to play catch up on the situation.
    Just a reminder to all if you decide to deflate the tires in a situation like this slice the valve stem not the tire itself. This is not only an easier slice but a safer deflation for you and the vehicles occupants. Plus if it does turn out to not be a kidnapping and you are made to pay for the repair it will be cheaper.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

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  8. #38
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    You think he'll stop and wait for a LEO just because some guy in the parking lot asks him to? We just had a big, long discussion a little while ago about walking out of Wal-Mart with items under your arm, no bag, and no indication that you had paid for them. And HOW many people insisted that a Wal-Mart employee has no right to stop them and ask to see a receipt? HOW many people said they have every right, in that situation, to get all indignant about the assumption that they're guilty and to refuse to cooperate?

    And yet you think this father is just going to stop and be all happy and cooperative as some stranger in a parking lot sticks his nose into something that is none of his business, and insists on the father waiting for a cop?

    Yeah, sure.

    Sorry, but I'm not seeing it. If this is a father retrieving a wayward child, he is probably already in a bad mood and certainly not likely to be too inclined to welcome a nosy stranger.

    Does that mean I wouldn't try to intervene? No. But I'm going to call the cops first (if I can) and be darned careful about what I say and do, unless I am absolutely, 100% certain about all of the details. I am most certainly NOT going to go into it with the attitude that it's my job to kick this guys ass or, worse yet, to shoot him!

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    I'm gonna talk to them

    if he doesn't want to talk then he will be notified that I am calling 911, and that he now needs to wait for an officer to sort it out.... or leave her where she is...

    at the very least he is guilty of domestic abuse... maybe he'll want to abuse me instead, in which case he will meet the ugly end of a .45...

    get familiar with the law in your area...

    talk to PD dispatch, what if anything do they want you to do?

    what is the law on "citizen's arrest"?

    some states allow citizens arrest for felony - but you may not be immune to civil liability for your actions...

    IANALY - some settling may occur during shipping, and YMMV.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    A final thought on getting in deep, fast. Brownie, I figure you're gonna have some numbers on this. Maybe some other leo's can shed some light, too.
    In the given scenario, take into account that the woman MAY be the g/f of the large male. And, what happens to a lot of leo's when they try to arrest, detain, or even approach the male. Who becomes the 'bad guy' when she realizes that the Luvofherlife is 'bout to get cuffed and stuffed? Things can turn downright hairy for the uniformed officer in that case. How 'bout for the everyday Joe that steps into the fray?

    Dan

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    Gentlemen,
    I believe we are all on the same side.
    Agreed. I think we are all saying the same thing in different ways. I didn't mean to give anyone the impression that I plan to go in with guns blazing. If I did give that impression, I apologize. The plan, as always, is: proceed with caution. Call 911 if I can without jeapardizing the girl or myself.

    My point is that I couldn't live with myself if I let him leave with her. I would follow an increasing level of force pattern that would culminate with a shot bad guy if he doesn't stop.

    As long as I know in my heart that I acted as a reasonable person in possession of only the facts I know at the time, I will let the chips fall where they may.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  12. #42
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    jd;

    The two most dangerous events for officers [ at least statistically till 2001 when I got off the dept. ] were domestic violence and traffic stops. That may not be the case today, but I would think it has not changed.

    Domestic violence calls, the abused woman can be a real problem to the responding officer/s as she is not want to have him arrested and make bail, only to come back on her for pressing charges on him. They are known to fight when the cuffs are going on the aggressor/abuser for that reason.

    One of the reasons responding officers seperate the parties immediately upon entering the scene by SOP's of the dept. In this scenario, I don't think the female/abductee is in the same scenario as the male is not being arrested, nor will we be in the same close proximity to the agressor/abductor if we are smart or in an enclosed space like a kitchen or livingroom.

    A dad grabbing a daughter like that in public should be able to understand the totality of circumstances and calm down enough to understand your position. It's certainly not like the WalMart situation of a guy walking out in public whose minding his own business and being adressed.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; February 21st, 2007 at 10:13 PM.
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  13. #43
    Member Array kikr's Avatar
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    In Florida this is a legal shoot.

    My fiancee is a kidnapping survivor, I've spoken to her about it at length. Her son's father has threatened kidnapping on several occasions. I've put some thought into this and my thoughs are


    1. There will not be any movement to a secondary location. I will place myself between the abductorand the vehicle. If possible I will slash the vehicles tires, or disable the ignition systems. They will not get in the vehicle and if they do the vehicle will not move.

    2. I will shoot the attacker untill the victim is free and clear.
    We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
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  14. #44
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    A final thought on getting in deep, fast. Brownie, I figure you're gonna have some numbers on this. Maybe some other leo's can shed some light, too.
    In the given scenario, take into account that the woman MAY be the g/f of the large male. And, what happens to a lot of leo's when they try to arrest, detain, or even approach the male. Who becomes the 'bad guy' when she realizes that the Luvofherlife is 'bout to get cuffed and stuffed? Things can turn downright hairy for the uniformed officer in that case. How 'bout for the everyday Joe that steps into the fray?

    Dan
    LEO's are Everyday Joe's. They just have the force of numbers behind them usually. Either way it's a bad situation that will have to be evaluated on the fly and each time it's going to be different depending on various variables and responses.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  15. #45
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    OK. Here is the deal, life isn't fair.

    You don't get all the information you need to accompish every task you need to accomplish. That's life!

    Here are your choices: 1) don't do anything because you aren't sure. This involves the risk of having to live with seeing her picture in the obit column knowing you could have saved her.

    2) react too swiftly and risk having to live with having shot her dad or boy friend.

    3) adopt a "I'm not letting him leave with her" attitude and warn him that you will fire if he doesn't cease and desist. This obviously puts you into greater danger because you have warned a potention bad guy who may now produce a weapon and shoot you.

    What would I do? Simple decision for me; it would be #3.

    All I have to do is imagine my daughter in her place. I would hope to God that people would stop the guy from taking her.

    I would have to make sure that he knew I was pointing a gun at him. If he continued to try to take her, I would wait until the last possible second but in the end, I would shoot him.
    In my opinion, that is the "best" answer I have seen so far. ("Best" being what I would do.)

    +1, Paul.

    Here is my response to some of the other responses (some are repeated, sorry.)

    1) He is a police officer... He WILL have her handcuffed... Not dragging her to a car kicking and screaming... She may however, be kicking and screaming in cuffs.

    2) He is her dad/boyfriend, etc. He may get pissed at being "interfered" with, but when it is straightened out, he will probably be grateful.

    If it IS a true abduction, in my opinion, when he is challenged, he will let her go and run. Kidnappers do not want attention or witnesses. If it is a true kidnapping, if he gets her in the car, it is highly probable she is going to die.

    As far as making sure of the situation, yes, absolutely, make sure before you fire. However, under TN law, and I am sure other states as well, the threat of death or serious bodily harm "must be real, or honestly believed to be real at the time, and must be founded on reasonable grounds". If you honestly and reasonably believe the girl to be in danger of death or serious bodily harm, you can (under TN law, at least) use deadly force to prevent it. I am not going to allow him to get her into the car while I make up my mind as to what is actually going on. I am not going to see her picture on the news and say "I saw that and did nothing to stop it". And I am not going to just let him drive off and get a tag number while I wait on LEO to arrive.

    I am a LEO, and he is NOT getting her into the car under ANY circumstances until I am convinced that there is a legitimate reason he is doing what he is. That includes using deadly force to stop it. Personally, I would take the same view as a HCP holder without a badge.

    Charlie
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

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