You see an abduction in progress.... - Page 4

You see an abduction in progress....

This is a discussion on You see an abduction in progress.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would make a scene as best I could and intervene...I wouldn't pull a gun until I was SURE it was a kidnapping or the ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array robinsonre's Avatar
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    I would make a scene as best I could and intervene...I wouldn't pull a gun until I was SURE it was a kidnapping or the assailant pulled a weapon himself.


    Yes...it could be a father dragging away a wayward teen, and if it was he'd probably be pissed, but he'd at the least most likely turn around and give you a "F*$K OFF, I'm her father."

    If she claims otherwise or seems too shaken up then I'm going to do everything in my power to keep him from leaving with her.

    This is another great instance of the "trust your gut instinct" and analyze the situation situations.

    What does it "look" like is going on here?

    If it's a father retrieving a wayward teen she's likely to be more angry and less panicky and frightened. (not a guarantee) She's also not as likely to be repelling him as violently (also DEFINITELY not a guarantee).

    It would be a very difficult situation to be sure, but I know I couldn't live with myself if I just let some poor girl to be terrified, brutalized, raped, or worse.

    - Ryan
    "Life exists at a level of complexity almost beyond our ability to comprehend. It's a well known fact that if you try to take apart a cat to see how it works one of the first things you have on your hands is a non-working cat" - Douglas Adams

    "All things are governed by law" - Hippocrates


  2. #47
    Member Array Dkny's Avatar
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    I would drop him and wouldnt shed a tear. I would call a lawyer and just hope the girls testimony to what was going down was enough to justify the force i used. People who abuse, and prey upon women are the worst scum there is in my book period.

  3. #48
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    Well, if you're right near your own vehicle you can quickly use your car to smash in his vehicle front end. That would toss a quick monkey wrench into his abduction plans.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Under Florida law, the use of deadly force is permissible to stop the commission of a forcible felony, and kidnapping is a forcible felony under F.S. 776.08. So from a legal standpoint, deadly force is an option here.

    If this is, in fact, a stranger abduction of a child, there is a significant chance that she is going to be killed. I am not going to be the last one to see this girl alive.

    If the subject has not displayed a weapon, I am going to challenge him first, without drawing or even mentioning deadly force, as 911 gets called. If he continues his actions, he gets a dose of OC, or maybe an old fashioned thumping, depending on what I have on me at the time.

    If he has a weapon, or the above does not work, deadly force comes into play, either threatened or used.

    I have no desire to be a hero, but I am not going to be the last person to see this child alive. If all else fails, he'll get one final order to release her, delivered from behind the muzzle. Failure to comply will result in shots fired.

    It's a tough situation, but if I am forced to choose between living with having shot this guy, or living with the knowledge that I could have stopped something terrible from happening to the girl but didn't, I'll go with the former.

    Matt
    I think I pretty much agree wholeheartedly with what Matt said.

    Maybe with a minor twist. It's always hard to tell for certain exactly what's really going on, and things aren't always quite as they might seem to be. I'd hate to find out the BG was really "Daddy" dragging rebellious daughter back home after she'd been grounded for misbehavin' but snuck outa the house to rejoin her mall-rat friends, with she kicking & screaming & "playing the role up" for the benefit of bystanders . . . who knows . . .

    I think maybe if the apparent BG perp didn't obviously appear armed with a weapon and capable of turning things into a hostage situation, since it was described as a parking-lot attempted abduction, i might consider shooting the guy's vehicle tires out. That way, he's not abducting anyone offsite and you've (hopefully) just greatly enhanced better control of the situation until the police can arrive and sort everything out.

    If the abduction's prevented, then immediate problem solved . . . inless BG elects to continue being REALLY stupid . . .

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array BruceGibson's Avatar
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    I concur with what MattLarson said. That's my stance.

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    This situation happened to a former boss of mine (one of the owners of the security company i worked for). He first ordered the man to let her go, he told my boss to mind his own business. On the second order to let her go, the guy reached into his coat (michigan winter). My boss drew down on him and almost fired. In a matter of seconds, Detroit PD showed up IN FORCE and arrested my boss. The guy my boss almost shot was a plainclothes officer. When he reached in his coat he was grabbing a radio to call for backup. the woman a repeat offinding crack dealer.

    My boss eventually got off (did spend the night in jail, and spent some time with lawyers, worrying, losing sleep), but had he fired...you can bet things would have been ugly for him.

    Unless YOU or YOUR family are in peril, you had better know the whole story you are involving yourself in.

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    ..........hmmmmm.

    Dan

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LBrombach View Post
    This situation happened to a former boss of mine (one of the owners of the security company i worked for). He first ordered the man to let her go, he told my boss to mind his own business. On the second order to let her go, the guy reached into his coat (michigan winter). My boss drew down on him and almost fired. In a matter of seconds, Detroit PD showed up IN FORCE and arrested my boss. The guy my boss almost shot was a plainclothes officer. When he reached in his coat he was grabbing a radio to call for backup. the woman a repeat offinding crack dealer.

    My boss eventually got off (did spend the night in jail, and spent some time with lawyers, worrying, losing sleep), but had he fired...you can bet things would have been ugly for him.

    Unless YOU or YOUR family are in peril, you had better know the whole story you are involving yourself in.
    It could just as easily gone the other way. He could have done nothing and the guy could have turned out to be a scum bag who kills the girl.

    The cop screwed up. He should have announced that he was a cop as soon as your boss started ordering him to release the woman.

    We each have to make our choices but I stand by my original statement. He wouldn't leave the parking lot with her unless he showed me he was ligit.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  9. #54
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    PaulG;

    I was going to write a reply to LBrombach's post about his boss last night but I was just too tired after shooting ariel targets all day.

    My reply would be to LBrombach, that yes, my previous posts would not change based on his bosses experience. I'm not enamored to be so nice about how I think the cop screwed the pooch though when challenged by the boss.

    My take, from the persepctive of having been in that profession, is that the det. should have immediately ID'd himself verbally and his badge exposed to the boss visually. I don't know any detective anywhere who doesn't wear his badge on his belt or around his neck.

    There's a reason they do this. Instant access to creds as their actions may not only be misinterpreted by the general public, but in the bigger districts/cities, their actions can and at times are challenged by uniformed officers who have no idea who the detective is.

    In the related boss story, we don't know how hard the arrestee was struggling, if she looked like she was in danger or just protesting being "handled". I'm quite sure the situation was diffferent in some ways fro m this threads initial posters description, as no two are likely alike in force being applied or resistance to that force.

    In short, the cop had an attitude, and that almost got him shot. If he had enough leeway to reach for a radio to call dispatch, the girl was not putting up that much of a struggle where he needed both hands/arms to control the subject in question.

    As such, he could have easily flashed the badge and asked that boss to move along instead of "copping" [ pun intended ] an attitude which led to the escalation of the boss and subsequent actions by the men in blue when they arrived.


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  10. #55
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    I agree that the cop screwed up, which is why my boss got off. But it did cost him several thousand dollars none-the-less.

    I say this not to disagree with you, because i completely understand your position, which mirrors mine until this incident. I bring up this incident because I think many who would do great things are unaware of the legal aftermath they face, even if they are right to act. Kudos to those brave enough or financially well off enough to always do the right thing. Shame on the lawyers that penalize us for doing it.
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  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    The cop should have identified himself especialy sinse he was in plain clothes. We had a university cop killed here because he did not ID himself while he was trying to aprehend a student. A uniform cop saw him with his gun out and ended up shooting the university cop. All this happened due to the university cop did not follow the proper procedure.

  12. #57
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    I agree with most here. Too many variables. If I knew them well and could trust they were really being abducted, I'd do whatever I needed to do to stop it. If it were my daughter, I imagine I'd react in a much harsher way because there would be no doubt she was being abducted. I'd just need to know it was legit before I'd open fire on someone. In Ky it would be legal to take lethal force against a kidnapper..

  13. #58
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    Yeah, the cop screwed up. So what? That doesn't change the fact that the guy STILL ended up spending a night in jail, STILL had to spend a bunch of money on a lawyer, and STILL came very close to shooting a cop!

    You think that if he had killed the cop the district attorney would have said "Oh yeah, the cop screwed up, never mind." Not a chance! If he had fired he would STILL be in jail, would have given a black eye to ALL CCW holders, and his life would be completely ruined.

    The point is, when you don't know every single detail of a situation, you need to proceed with EXTREME caution! Just saying "the cop screwed up" is simply not enough in a case like this.

  14. #59
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    denverd0n;

    The moral would be?

    That your actions bring consequences, right or wrong, no more or less.

    Intercepting a felony in your presence [ abduction/kidnapping ] is something each will have to decide if it is worth the time and effort to get involved.

    Every action has risks, risk analysis and subsequent results is something we all have to determine how much we can or are willing to accept.

    Let the chips fall where they may.

    Brownie
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  15. #60
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr
    denverd0n; The moral would be?
    The moral would be the part right after I said, "The point is..."

    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr
    Intercepting a felony in your presence...
    And in this (or any) case part of using extreme caution would be not to make the foolish assumption that is IS a felony, based on limited information. Indeed, this is a classic example of the old saying about what happens when you ASS-U-ME. Except, in this case, you are only going to make an ASS of yourself if you assume too much too quickly, and you could very well end up in prison where the whole "ASS" issue takes on a new and undesirable meaning!

    Just to make it really clear... MORAL:
    Proceed with caution. Don't make rash assumptions. Don't take any action that escalates the level of conflict until you are sure there is no alternative. Try to resolve things WITHOUT drawing your gun, if that is at all possible.

    For example, in this case the man might have taken cover, called out for the "abductor" (who was actually a cop) to stop and AT THE SAME TIME say that he was calling the cops. This probably would have resulted in the cop announcing that he WAS a cop. What's more, having taken cover first he might not have had the immediate need to draw (or at least not to have revealed) his weapon as soon as the cop reached into his coat. The cop screwed up in this case, but I see a variety of ways that the other guy screwed up also.
    Last edited by denverd0n; March 21st, 2007 at 03:13 PM.

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