You see an abduction in progress.... - Page 5

You see an abduction in progress....

This is a discussion on You see an abduction in progress.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Alright, I haven't seen one woman weigh in here, so here I go.. Head First. Knowing first hand what it's like to be abducted and ...

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Thread: You see an abduction in progress....

  1. #61
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    Alright, I haven't seen one woman weigh in here, so here I go.. Head First.

    Knowing first hand what it's like to be abducted and to live a life (even a few hours) in that much terror, pain and fear, I know that it's something you never, EVER, recover from. There IS such a thing as a fate worse than death and I'm not going to ever take the chance that this is just "Daddy" taking her home.

    Even REAL Daddy's can be the monsters... what about that? What if her real father is the one who is dragging her home to beat and rape her? What then?

    You know Jeffery Dommer pulled that stunt and it worked. He told bystanders that one of his escaped victims was his kid and everyone ignored him. I think they found the kids body in a bucket of lye.

    First, if it's a LEO, they have cuffs, badges, and usually backup, and I've not seen many plain clothes officers wrestling a girl into a car by themselves.

    Second, I know that good Dad's can get pissed off and can handle their children roughly, but I don't think it should ever include physically strong arming your daughter into the back of a car. Even if it is her real father, he should be stopped. If he's willing to drag her screaming from any public place, what is he willing to do to her in private when he has her home? Beat her? I'm sorry, Dad or no Dad, he's not leaving without a police escort and if it were that serious to begin with, I would hope that Dad would have brought the police or a Doctor, or SOMEONE to help bring his daughter home if there was trouble.

    If I witnessed any man dragging a girl across a parking lot I'm calling 911 while stepping up, gun already in hand (because I KNOW I can't take him physically if he's already subdued ONE girl) and I'm demanding he let her go or wait till the police arrive to prove his intentions are in her favor (i.e. she has mental issues). If he tries to lay one hand on me I will shoot him and if he tries to leave, I will shoot him.

    You hear about it all the time, the women who are raped and abducted because no one stepped in to help. No one wants to get involved anymore because they are afraid of making a mistake and getting sued, or even doing the RIGHT thing and STILL getting sued.

    I don't care. If it saves one girl from having to go through that kind of trauma, I'll rise to the occasion.

    And if it were my daughter... The man would be dead before he even took a step towards the parking lot. Ballistics would pull eight rounds out of him from me and probably another eight from her father, and they'd have to pry my gun from my fingers because it would be reloaded and I'd be covering his dead body.


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    If its my family or a girl i know then some rather large gentleman gets a lesson , if not then i become a good witness . I have served warrants and collected bond on some small females who will shout anything . If possible i will block the partys from leaving the area , and call 911 , i wont put hands on nor will i fire on anyone unless things escilate tho . Officers with arrest powers can sort it out , till then i am talking my butt off and recording a plate no and descriptions .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  3. #63
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    I hate to keep adding coal to this fire, but other than the legal consequences of my actions, I have to consider the other ending...I might lose the gunfight.

    If I KNOW that some bad is going on then I couldn't walk away and still sleep at night. That said, I owe it to MY wife and children not to be wreckless and throw caution to the wind. If I were a single guy than I might be able to be more aggressive on this line. But while i might risk my life (or worse, good health), I'll not risk the rest of my family's lives (as in-the emotional trauma, or physical, if they are with me) without a damn good reason. No assumptions here. Call 911? yes. Be the best witness i can? you bet. Shout at the guy and make a scene? Probably. Allow myself to possibly end up with a colostomy bag, leaving my family without an income or father? I can't say that I will if I can help it. I'd hate to do it and find out that the crack dealer dragging the girl was trying to collect her crack-debt. Is he wrong? Yep, but I'll not say that her life is as valuable as mine.
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  4. #64
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    LB you illistrate the issues of intervention well , thank you for the post .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    alot of tough talk from some people, pullin out that popgun and ordering someone with a female minor in their grasp and physical control to stop and let her go.....

    you've just created a hostage situation, at best of the worst. what are you gonna do now, shoot thru her? immature reaction, or premature at best.

    personally, i'd approach in a nonthreatening manner, and inform the guy that security sent me out to ask him to wait for the police that were on the way. yes, it would be a lie. but youll learn alot in the response. the guy is likely to go for a pocket - he's gonna need keys to start the car. being in a parkin lot, its not like there should be any lack of cover. again, why freak out?

    as a father, and not being the best of kids in my youth, i can imagine some of the girls i hung around with back in the day having fathers come pick them up in less than the best of moods. and i can imagine a father packing a gun in case a low life thats sellin daddy's little girl her crack decides to pull a gun do the right thing - protect his daughter from the bad elements she's hanging around with.... which is what i would think of some young male coming up to me in the parking lot, not an leo, not identifying himself as an leo, pulling out a weapon and tellin me in his best little big boy voice to stop.... YOU'RE more likely to get shot, than him, because well, he's gonna be more pissed and adrenaline filled and he's holding the girl...

    my gist is, unless you get the guy alone and are sure, you better not skin that hog leg.... there are more scenario's where you're NOT justified than where you ARE.

  6. #66
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    Don't take any action that escalates the level of conflict until you are sure there is no alternative.

    That means you do nothing at all, stand by, don't let him see you even dialing 911, else you ARE escalating the situation in some manner.

    I think most who've responded have shown restarin in pulling the "hogleg" until it was absolutely necassary to stop the male from leaving with the female.

    Forcing anyone physically to not be free to leave of their own free will is a felony, it's "arrest" if you are LEO, and abduction/kidnapping otherwise. It is illegal for ANYONE who is not under arrest to be held against their will physically, even the "dad" with the daughter scenario.

    You make the male [ in this case ] aware you are dialing or have dialed 911, you have escalated the situation. You intervene and tell the male that security sent you out, you just escalated the situation as well.

    Escalation is intervention in some manner where the male [ in the case ] is aware someone is intervening in any way to stop his prsent actions. You take your chances getting involved any way you look at it. You could be physically assaulted in any manner after any type of approach at any distance to verbal assault through dying by gunfire, etc.

    limatunes: I might not react as you have stated, but there's no question I'll intervene physically [ an escalation in and of itself ]. How far that action brings any re-escalation is up to the other party, and the consequences thereof will be determined by that re-escalation on their part.

    The cop screwed the pooch, the "boss" got off because the cop was wrong in the courts eyes. The boss felt threatened by the officer reaching into his coat [ whats known as a "furtive gesture/movement" by officers ]. He should have known better himself as he is taught that type of terminology and how cops can get killed by not paying enough attention to those types of warning signals to possible precedent imminent danger to themselves.

    The cop copped an attitude, not very professional.

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    Last edited by AzQkr; March 22nd, 2007 at 12:37 AM.
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  7. #67
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    You think that if he had killed the cop the district attorney would have said "Oh yeah, the cop screwed up, never mind." Not a chance! If he had fired he would STILL be in jail,

    And rightfully so sir.

    You don't fire until you see a weapon, identify the threat. Furtive movement is not a threat, it's a potential threat indicator, which doesn't allow you to fire in and of itself. You'll fire when you see a gun drawn from the pocket, not until.

    If the "boss" had fired before identifying a threat, he would be judged wrong in the courts eyes, but not because he intervened to stop what a reasonable person on a jury would consider a felony in presence until that could be discounted in some way.

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  8. #68
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    I'd smash my car into his, thus preventing his escape.

    At that point he would probably release the girl and run. Most serial rapists/killers are cowards and would rather avoid a confrontation from someone who can defend themselves. If he came at me I'd lock the doors and stick my tongue out at him, then hit reverse baby.

    Maybe he'd be dumb enough to get in front of the car.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Don't take this as a bashing of anyone but I have to STRONGLY disagree with many of the comments I hear.

    First of all, I don't think anyone here advocated pulling a gun and blasting the potential bad guy. Also, no one is trying to make "tough talk".

    None of us want this to end badly either for the girl, ourselves or our families. As I said, I would do everything possible to stop him; using an escalating force continuum and only pull the gun at the last minute if all else failed. I always keep a cell phone with me and would call 911 to get to cops on the way.

    However, I am saddened to hear all of the talk about not helping the girl because of all of the potential financial, legal and physical risks. Iím not rich. If I screw up and make the wrong choice Iíll be financially ruined.

    Maybe one day such an event will happen to me and Iíll be wrong and end up broke, in prison and wearing a colostomy bag and some of you guys can say, ďwell, I told yaí soĒ. Well, I can live with that easier than I can live with the idea that a girl died when I could have stopped it.

    I admit that I'm an old dinosaur but I believe that this country is going to hell in a hand basket. No one cares about anyone any more. Neighbors don't help each other any more. Itís all about me and the hell with everyone else. You donít like something, sue the SOB. Your wife gets on your nerves, divorce her and find yourself a chippy.

    I refuse to live that way. My parents instilled an old fashioned belief in me: your word is your bond, you protect the weak ALWAYS and there are some things that are worth dying for.

    Maybe some of you guys can read the girls obit in the paper and feel pride because you were a good witness even though things didnít work out for the girl, but I canít.

    I honestly believe that if we refuse the help where needed, we are actually helping American on its hand basket ride to the lower regions. I may end up in hell but I will not walk there willingly. They are going to have to drag me kicking and screaming.

    Hey Limatunes Ė you must be related to my wife. If my wife was with me and I refused to help the girl, my wife would probably kill my behind after she finished with the bad guy.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  10. #70
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    If it is family of mine, then the bad guys go down. But if I do not know the person the most I can do is try to talk to him and call 911. I would not just idly stand by and relay info to 911, but call 911 and then confront the guy as a "regular joe". Dont pull a gun or anything, just try to stall him and find out what is really going on.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG
    I honestly believe that if we refuse the help where needed, we are actually helping American on its hand basket ride to the lower regions.
    I agree completely. All I have said so far is that you have to be really, REALLY careful about rushing into a situation like this where you do not know what is happening. ASSUMING that you understand the situation based on only what has been described in this scenario is foolish.

    But I'm just as dismayed by the responses from folks who say they would stay out of it as I am by those from folks who have made up their minds that they are going to blast the guy if he doesn't follow their orders and let the girl go.

  12. #72
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
    I agree completely. All I have said so far is that you have to be really, REALLY careful about rushing into a situation like this where you do not know what is happening. ASSUMING that you understand the situation based on only what has been described in this scenario is foolish.

    But I'm just as dismayed by the responses from folks who say they would stay out of it as I am by those from folks who have made up their minds that they are going to blast the guy if he doesn't follow their orders and let the girl go.
    Sounds like we are in agreement. While we don't need any apathetic bystanders, we definitely don't need any hotheads.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  13. #73
    Member Array whamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    Don't take this as a bashing of anyone but I have to STRONGLY disagree with many of the comments I hear.

    First of all, I don't think anyone here advocated pulling a gun and blasting the potential bad guy. Also, no one is trying to make "tough talk".

    None of us want this to end badly either for the girl, ourselves or our families. As I said, I would do everything possible to stop him; using an escalating force continuum and only pull the gun at the last minute if all else failed. I always keep a cell phone with me and would call 911 to get to cops on the way.

    However, I am saddened to hear all of the talk about not helping the girl because of all of the potential financial, legal and physical risks. Iím not rich. If I screw up and make the wrong choice Iíll be financially ruined.

    Maybe one day such an event will happen to me and Iíll be wrong and end up broke, in prison and wearing a colostomy bag and some of you guys can say, ďwell, I told yaí soĒ. Well, I can live with that easier than I can live with the idea that a girl died when I could have stopped it.

    I admit that I'm an old dinosaur but I believe that this country is going to hell in a hand basket. No one cares about anyone any more. Neighbors don't help each other any more. Itís all about me and the hell with everyone else. You donít like something, sue the SOB. Your wife gets on your nerves, divorce her and find yourself a chippy.

    I refuse to live that way. My parents instilled an old fashioned belief in me: your word is your bond, you protect the weak ALWAYS and there are some things that are worth dying for.

    Maybe some of you guys can read the girls obit in the paper and feel pride because you were a good witness even though things didnít work out for the girl, but I canít.

    I honestly believe that if we refuse the help where needed, we are actually helping American on its hand basket ride to the lower regions. I may end up in hell but I will not walk there willingly. They are going to have to drag me kicking and screaming.

    Hey Limatunes Ė you must be related to my wife. If my wife was with me and I refused to help the girl, my wife would probably kill my behind after she finished with the bad guy.
    My hat is off to you....great post.

  14. #74
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    Limatunes, PaulG, Great posts. I'm glad to see that courage, compassion, and willingness are alive in America.
    We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
    George Orwell

  15. #75
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    In ID, you can help to stop a crime in process if you are preventing someone from being hurt or killed. (OK, over simplification) But if the BG is 'just pushing her into a van' and you pull a gun and shoot, the public defender will say there was no immediate threat and you did not KNOW he was going to kill her.

    In order to use lethal force, it has to be unavoidable. If you jump in early, pull you gun you COULD have walked away and called the cops. So you did not Ďavoidí the situation. So only if they had a gun, were stabbing her, beating her with a club or severally with fists etc. can you pull your gun. It really makes me think twice about directly helping others. . . You donít KNOW what is going on, you are only assuming, usually correctly, but heaven help you if you escalate the situation and pull the trigger, now YOU are the BG.
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